Author Topic: Time plus Faults Clarification  (Read 1975 times)

RebeccaU

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Time plus Faults Clarification
« on: June 22, 2017, 06:23:27 AM »
I am a Champs newbie and I am confused by the time plus faults scoring at Champs.  Can you explain it for me please?  Specifically, if my pre-elite dog runs past an obstacle, do I turn him around and retry (adding time but maintaining the path of the course) or do I continue on and take the fault points?
Also, does the time plus faults scoring negate the qualifying requirement? (clean run under SCT?)
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KarissaKS

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2017, 08:18:43 AM »
You want to complete all obstacles at Champs because any missed obstacles net you 20 faults for failure to perform and add 20 seconds to your time for your score. In general it's going to be faster to bring your dog back to do the obstacle versus running past. Also, while NADAC allows training in the ring, Champs is not the place to do this. If your dog jumps off a contact just keep going. Don't go back and redo it because E's at Champs kill your score.

If you are running in Pre-Elite then you don't need to worry about the distance challenge, but one thing to consider for those in the Regular division is the following -- If your dog is struggling with the distance challenge and hasn't faulted yet (off course, etc.), it's often faster to cross the line and take the 5 faults versus wasting 10 seconds arguing with your dog and trying to get them to send out. Remember if you don't even attempt the distance challenge you get 10 faults. But again, if you think your dog will go off course or waste time, maybe those 10 faults are worth it to you.

Ultimately run to keep your dog happy. Don't worry about scoring, it will all wash out in the end.

Qualifying requirements are the same as a regular trial. Your dog must be clean and under SCT. For the Regular division this includes the distance challenge.
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KarissaKS

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2017, 08:27:18 AM »
One more point about the time plus faults scoring method -- A dog with faults CAN place above a dog with no faults. So there are situations where "clean" does not equal "best." A very fast dog can drop a bar and still make the top placements over a more steady dog with no faults. This is what differs from a regular trial where clean trumps all. It's always why at Champs you *just keep going* and never give up on a run.
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RebeccaU

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2017, 08:38:33 AM »
Thank-you for the explanation.  While I understand your first comments about bringing my dog back around, (I did not know that a time fault is added along with the 20 point off course so thanks)  I am struggling to see how a dog with faults can place over a fault free dog.  Can you show me some example math?  Maybe that would help me understand.
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Linda W. Anderson

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2017, 09:22:16 AM »
Let me see if I can give you an example.  The score for a given course is, say, 100 points.  Dog A runs the course,  drops a bar (-5) and has a time of 35.5 seconds.
You would take the course time 100 and subtract the 5 faults AND the time 35.5.  That dog's score would be 59.5   Dog B runs clean but it's time is 42.6.  Course time of 100 minus 42.6.  This dog's score would be 57.4 which is lower than Dog A and thus a low placement.  Right, Chris?
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Rosemary

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2017, 09:38:57 AM »
Dogs need to qualify in open chances for regular champs.  Does this mean the distance challenges will be at the open level or will they be like an elite chances course? 

Rosemary

Marcy Matties

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2017, 01:30:09 PM »
Thank-you for the explanation.  While I understand your first comments about bringing my dog back around, (I did not know that a time fault is added along with the 20 point off course so thanks)  I am struggling to see how a dog with faults can place over a fault free dog.  Can you show me some example math?  Maybe that would help me understand.

I would defer to clarification from Chris, but I do not believe that there is both a 20 point off course AND a 20 point time fault.  I think it's just the 20 for failure to perform.  At least that's what I've thought the 3 times that I've been to Champs.  But I know my momma used to say that one day I would be wrong about something ...  ;D
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KarissaKS

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2017, 04:01:14 PM »
Correct, you don't get doubly penalized -- those 20 faults just "translate" into 20 seconds. So if it's going to take you more than 20 seconds to fix something (maybe your dog super struggles with weaves) then sure, go on -- But I can't think of too many scenarios where you would expect it to take longer than 20 seconds to redo an obstacle. Another BUT, you need to know your dog. In 2011 Secret was at her first Champs in Springfield as a 2 year old baby dog. While she did awesome and even placed 3rd in Round 3, by Round 6 her baby brain was starting to fry so when she missed a weave pole I elected to just keep going and not redo them -- she wasn't in contention for making finals anyhow, so I opted to keep her happy. Same thing in 2015, crazy Kizzy was never going to make finals so I skipped stuff that she found too mentally challenging in that environment. Other years/dogs I fix stuff because they were silly mistakes and I knew the dog did have a chance at finals so I wanted to get the best score possible each round.

Every year I blow the first round without fail. In 2015 Kaiser had 30 faults and Secret had 20 (off courses for both). We pushed hard to make that up in the other rounds and both dogs squeaked into finals. The faster your dog, the more faults you can get away with -- but in general, you want clean runs!  :)
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Vicki Storrs

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2017, 08:02:01 PM »
Okay I am TERRIBLE at knowing what the faults/deductions are!  But I had it in my head that doing something like, for instance, going around an obstacle (say a hoop or jump) and just continuing on the course at Champs got you two mark downs....20 points for failure to complete and 10 more points for Wrong course... 
I know Dega did that in 2015, came off a curve going to a hoop and then a tunnel.  He had a head of steam, went wide and missed the hoop but raced on in to the tunnel.  I did NOT bring him back to the hoop--partly because it would have been hard to get him stopped but mostly because he thought he was correct and I didn't want to alter that, even at Champs. 
Maybe somebody can tell me if that's correct as far as penalties?
And I guess the next question would be, what would the penalties be if I had brought him back to do the original hoop After he took the tunnel?  If he came back to the hoop and completed the course in order then would it be Just 10 points for wrong course (at that initial tunnel)?
Vicki
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Chris Nelson

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2017, 09:52:43 PM »
Okay I am TERRIBLE at knowing what the faults/deductions are!  But I had it in my head that doing something like, for instance, going around an obstacle (say a hoop or jump) and just continuing on the course at Champs got you two mark downs....20 points for failure to complete and 10 more points for Wrong course... 
I know Dega did that in 2015, came off a curve going to a hoop and then a tunnel.  He had a head of steam, went wide and missed the hoop but raced on in to the tunnel.  I did NOT bring him back to the hoop--partly because it would have been hard to get him stopped but mostly because he thought he was correct and I didn't want to alter that, even at Champs. 
Maybe somebody can tell me if that's correct as far as penalties?
And I guess the next question would be, what would the penalties be if I had brought him back to do the original hoop After he took the tunnel?  If he came back to the hoop and completed the course in order then would it be Just 10 points for wrong course (at that initial tunnel)?
Vicki

Hey Vicki,
The faults have evolved a bit over the past couple years.

If you have 3 jumps in a row.

You do #1
Run around #2
Do #3 and continue on with the course = 20 faults for missed obstacle

Do #1
Run around #2
Do 3# and then bring them back to 'fix' #2 and then continue on = 10 faults for off course

Do #1
Run around #2
Stop them before they take #3, fix #2, continue on = no faults, just a waste of time

The way you explained was an older way of faulting the first scenario.

Vicki Storrs

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2017, 05:01:48 AM »
Thank you Chris!! I appreciate the information...and the clarity!!!
Vicki
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MoabDiane

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2017, 02:35:07 PM »
So - this scenario happened to me a number of years ago at Champs.  Is it the "old" way of counting faults, and what would it be now?

Dog missed a hoop.  I didn't see it (he was a blur!), so didn't even think about fixing it.

It happened to be on a distance challenge, which was 5 faults.

He got 20 faults for missed obstacle, 10 faults for off course, and 5 faults for the distance miss.
I admit - 35 faults for a missed hoop really kinda surprised/galled me at the time.
Of course, I've gotten over it!  LOL!!!

Just curious.
diane

Vicki Storrs

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2017, 07:57:35 PM »
Mine was the same from two years ago except without the distance challenge. And by what Chris wrote below, yours would Now be 25 points (failure to perform and distance).  That's assuming the distance challenge was simply failed because you tried, then Stepped in to help.  Not sure if you believe the 5 points is also tied into missing the hoop? That you successfully handled from behind the line but got distance points docked because of missing the hoop? 
I am hoping by this conversation I will improve my choices this year at Champs...but suspect when I'm actually on course that the knowledge will all fly right out of my head!!
Vicki
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MoabDiane

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2017, 08:24:46 AM »
I did not see the dog miss the hoop, hence no attempt to go back and "fix" it.  Which I may or may not have been able to do anyway!  He was likely into or onto the next obstacle too fast.

Just curious about the 20 vs. 30 faults.  I don't really keep track at regular trials - if we NQ, we NQ and it doesn't matter to me how many faults we have!  But at Champs....yeah, it does.

diane

Linda W. Anderson

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2017, 10:13:17 AM »
You know, it might be nice to see exactly how the scoring will be done THIS year.  Chris?  Just a thought.
Linda
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