Author Topic: Time plus Faults Clarification  (Read 1949 times)

Sharon Nelson

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2017, 10:20:22 AM »
I did not see the dog miss the hoop, hence no attempt to go back and "fix" it.  Which I may or may not have been able to do anyway!  He was likely into or onto the next obstacle too fast.

Just curious about the 20 vs. 30 faults.  I don't really keep track at regular trials - if we NQ, we NQ and it doesn't matter to me how many faults we have!  But at Champs....yeah, it does.

diane

There is no longer the 30 fault scenario.  At the champs or the weekend trial.  It is either a Failure to Perform or Off Course, depending upon whether you fixed it or not.

Sharon
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danforth

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2017, 10:35:20 AM »
Distance challenge scoring.

This is my understanding.  Is it correct?

If we accept a distance challenge and succeed, we get 10 points added to final score.

If we start the challenge, but have to step in to save the course (no faults) we get 5 points added.

Faults incurred during the challenge count like any other faults.

If we ignore the distance challenge, is there a penalty?

And what else counts in scoring?

Isabel

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KarissaKS

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2017, 11:47:42 AM »
In the Regular division (not Stakes, which is its own world, and not Pre-Elite, which doesn't have a distance component) -- The distance component is expected, it's not a "bonus." If your dog successfully completes the obstacles behind the line then you incur 0 faults. If your dog sends out but then comes back into you and you have to cross the line to get him back out then you incur 5 faults for crossing the line. If you ignore the line entirely, do not attempt the distance component, and just continue to run next to your dog then you incur 10 faults.

The other scenario to consider is that your dog takes an off course obstacle during the distance component, which earns them a 10 point fault. If you can get them back on track without going over the line you won't incur additional faults. If you must cross the line to get them back on track then you will now have an additional 5 faults. This creates what might be the single scenario where one could justify not even attempting the distance line, if you feel your dog will surely go off course and waste time, then maybe the 10 faults are worth it to you. I guess contacts would fall into this as well -- if your dog jumps contacts with you not right there then that's 20 faults, so again, 10 would be "better."

All of this talk, though, and really all everyone should be worrying about is running clean. Ultimately those who win Champs tend do so with clean rounds, though very fast dogs can certainly make up small errors like a dropped bar. If you aren't worried about winning then just go and do the best you can do and not worry so much about cumulative scoring. You can still place in individual classes even after you've bombed a different run.

I do wish that NADAC handed out "clean run" or "Q" ribbons (since they do count towards qualifying) at Champs. It would at least give people something to take home with them if they didn't earn any placements over the four days. Secret made finals in 2015 with 7 clean runs and brought home diddly squat because she was never in the top 8 of her 16" class. Ribbons for the finalists would be another special bonus.
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Sharon Nelson

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2017, 11:54:45 AM »
Distance challenge scoring.

This is my understanding.  Is it correct?

If we accept a distance challenge and succeed, we get 10 points added to final score.

If we start the challenge, but have to step in to save the course (no faults) we get 5 points added.

Faults incurred during the challenge count like any other faults.

If we ignore the distance challenge, is there a penalty?

And what else counts in scoring?

Isabel

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If you make no attempt at the distance, it is 10 faults.  If you make an attempt and need to cross the line to help your dog it is five faults.  There are no "extra" points if you succeed.

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danforth

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2017, 01:18:47 PM »
Thanks.

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Chris Nelson

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2017, 02:59:53 PM »
So - this scenario happened to me a number of years ago at Champs.  Is it the "old" way of counting faults, and what would it be now?

Dog missed a hoop.  I didn't see it (he was a blur!), so didn't even think about fixing it.

It happened to be on a distance challenge, which was 5 faults.

He got 20 faults for missed obstacle, 10 faults for off course, and 5 faults for the distance miss.
I admit - 35 faults for a missed hoop really kinda surprised/galled me at the time.
Of course, I've gotten over it!  LOL!!!

Just curious.
diane

Old version.

For the past two years we have only faulted that scenario as 20 faults for the missed hoop, 5 for failing the distance test.

Chris Nelson

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2017, 03:01:17 PM »
I do wish that NADAC handed out "clean run" or "Q" ribbons (since they do count towards qualifying) at Champs. It would at least give people something to take home with them if they didn't earn any placements over the four days. Secret made finals in 2015 with 7 clean runs and brought home diddly squat because she was never in the top 8 of her 16" class. Ribbons for the finalists would be another special bonus.

Already on my to-do list :)

RebeccaU

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2017, 06:42:25 PM »
In the Regular division (not Stakes, which is its own world, and not Pre-Elite, which doesn't have a distance component) -- The distance component is expected, it's not a "bonus." If your dog successfully completes the obstacles behind the line then you incur 0 faults. If your dog sends out but then comes back into you and you have to cross the line to get him back out then you incur 5 faults for crossing the line. If you ignore the line entirely, do not attempt the distance component, and just continue to run next to your dog then you incur 10 faults.

The other scenario to consider is that your dog takes an off course obstacle during the distance component, which earns them a 10 point fault. If you can get them back on track without going over the line you won't incur additional faults. If you must cross the line to get them back on track then you will now have an additional 5 faults. This creates what might be the single scenario where one could justify not even attempting the distance line, if you feel your dog will surely go off course and waste time, then maybe the 10 faults are worth it to you. I guess contacts would fall into this as well -- if your dog jumps contacts with you not right there then that's 20 faults, so again, 10 would be "better."

All of this talk, though, and really all everyone should be worrying about is running clean. Ultimately those who win Champs tend do so with clean rounds, though very fast dogs can certainly make up small errors like a dropped bar. If you aren't worried about winning then just go and do the best you can do and not worry so much about cumulative scoring. You can still place in individual classes even after you've bombed a different run.

I do wish that NADAC handed out "clean run" or "Q" ribbons (since they do count towards qualifying) at Champs. It would at least give people something to take home with them if they didn't earn any placements over the four days. Secret made finals in 2015 with 7 clean runs and brought home diddly squat because she was never in the top 8 of her 16" class. Ribbons for the finalists would be another special bonus.
Oh I second the request for a Q ribbon!  I didn't realize they were not given out.  I too am in the highly competitive 16" group and would love an acknowledgement of my success at champs even if I don't place in the top 8.  It doesn't have to be a big fancy ribbon, just the plain flat one that says I was there and had a clean run.


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judy.whitbred

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2017, 05:06:08 AM »
Chris,

In the second example you set out, after you go back and complete obstacle two would you then skip obstacle three (since you already did that one) and move on to obstacle four. 

If you did obstacle three again, would you be penalized as an off course for taking that obstacle again?  Just want to be sure what to do not to get anymore faults than necessary.


Quote
Do #1
Run around #2
Do 3# and then bring them back to 'fix' #2 and then continue on = 10 faults for off course

Judy Whitbred

Chris Nelson

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2017, 06:49:40 AM »
Chris,

In the second example you set out, after you go back and complete obstacle two would you then skip obstacle three (since you already did that one) and move on to obstacle four. 

If you did obstacle three again, would you be penalized as an off course for taking that obstacle again?  Just want to be sure what to do not to get anymore faults than necessary.


Quote
Do #1
Run around #2
Do 3# and then bring them back to 'fix' #2 and then continue on = 10 faults for off course

Judy Whitbred

Nope you won't get faulted again.
You were faulted for the off course #3, but since you came back to fix #2 you didn't skip any obstacles so no more faults.

The #2 jump is still the next correct obstacle in the sequence.


danforth

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2017, 07:07:16 AM »
So after you go back and do number 2, do you then do number 3 again or skip it and go onto number 4.   I know that there was a 10 point fault for taking number 3 in the first place.

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MoabDiane

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2017, 07:50:53 AM »
The easiest way I can think of to explain this is what I learned long ago:

"You are OFF course (one off-course fault), until you are back ON course."

So, once you take one off-course obstacle, it doesn't matter (fault-wise, just time-wise) how many more you take to get back on course.

diane

Marcy Matties

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2017, 08:23:50 AM »
So after you go back and do number 2, do you then do number 3 again or skip it and go onto number 4.   I know that there was a 10 point fault for taking number 3 in the first place.

Isabel

Yes.  Fix #2 and then do #3.  Do not skip it because it is the CORRECT obstacle after #2.
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danforth

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2017, 10:19:49 AM »
Thanks.  That is what I thought, but wanted to verify.   The 10 point fault is for doing 3 as an 'off course".

Isabel
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DebbieP

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Re: Time plus Faults Clarification
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2017, 10:30:57 AM »
Hopefully this won't happen, but if it does: if dog misses #2 and goes to #3 and #4, can you then go back to #2 for a redo (from #2 onward) and only incur 1 off-course fault?

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