2018 Champs

[ricbonner]

Chris

Site says:
"If a dog is over 9 on the first day of Championships they MUST enter the Veterans division. If a dog is over 10 on the first day of the Championships, then they MUST be entered into the Double Digit division."

Is that correct?  In the past it has been 7 (seven) years of age that requires entry to the Veterans division at Champs.

[Chris Nelson]

It is correct.

We're trying to bring it inline with what our rulebook states for when a dog must take a height break, which is 9 and 12.

I still highly encourage folks to enter the vet division at 7 years of age for the longevity of their dogs, but I feel strange requiring it at Champs when it isn't required at trials.

[Ed and Tres]

We'll be adding a lot more info over the next couple months as well.  Mostly in regards to what to expect from each level in regards to difficulty.

I look forward to this, because the Pre-Elite level qualifications have not changed and if a new person in NADAC thought that they can enter Pre-Elite with those minimum requirements and do well at Champs they would likely be very discouraged unless they had a super great dog.

Belle qualified in Pre-Elite via the minimum requirements (10 Intro Regular Qs and 2 Novice Hooper Qs) needed for 2017 and she did very well considering that Champs was the first time in competition she ever attempted a set of 12 weave poles or ran on dirt in a giant arena. Seeing a set of 12 did not surprise us but it very well could for some other team. Especially since if you got your 10 regular Qs in Intro you may have never even done one set of 6 weave poles.

I'm not complaining just echoing that listing the expectation of what type of course a team will see in Pre-Elite is a good thing to put in addition to the requirements.

[Kyle]

Just read the requirements that have been posted for 2018 Championships. I realize this is the "short form" and that more info will be provided.  But, since it's "new" info, I thought I would throw my personal opinion out there about the "Pre-Elite" division.

I have no horse in this race, my dogs would be running in the Elite division, so I guess my opinion shouldn't count, but because I care about what Championships is supposed to represent, here it is anyway.... 

I've always disagreed with the name "Pre-Elite" because if a dog may have up to 100 points in Elite Regular prior to running in Championships it would now be an "Elite" *titled* dog per NADAC rules. Let's be honest - it could have it's OUTSTANDING Elite title. The courses for "Pre-Elite" dogs are simplified from the "Elite" courses at Championships (as they are in Open). NADAC was kind enough to offer this for people who wanted to bring their young - not ready for Elite courses - dogs. So why would NADAC allow dogs into this class who *are* Elite titled dogs?

How fair is this to the honestly entered and running Open dogs? How hard is it really to keep a dog entered and competing in Open (could also be called "Pre-Elite" because it is) for the 2 months after sending in the entry form for Championships? And, if the dog is ready for Elite within those 2 months prior to Championships, shouldn't your dog be ready to compete in Elite *at* Championships? If the answer to that is "no", then maybe the team should have stayed in Open, perfected some stuff and really kicked butt in "Pre-Elite" - where the team truly belonged.

Having Elite titled dogs in "Pre-Elite" is just not fair in my opinion. It would be no different than if NADAC offered a Started division at Champs with courses that were at a Started level but allowed Open titled dogs to run in it. No difference in my opinion.

I know some folks are going to bring up the money issue - they don't want to keep spending money on Open entries when their dog could move up to Elite. Yeah, yeah I get it. But you're going to spend quite a chunk of change just going to Champs, so that's not a talking point to me. 

Championships is a "Once A Year Event" and should be treated with the respect it deserves. Dogs being in their appropriate levels would show that respect. Allowing dogs to run at a level lower than what they are currently running is just not fair or respectful to the event nor their fellow exhibitors in my personal opinion.

Once again - just my opinion,
Kyle

[Linda W. Anderson]

I totally agree with Kyle on this one.  She makes some very valid points about the fairness of the competition.  Here's another scenario - currently, dogs can qualify for PreElite by earning 100 points in Intro Regular.  How fair is it to have a "titled" Elite dog (or one who has earned 90 Elite Regular points) running against a dog who is just out of Intro?    Some would argue that a dog who qualifies by earning 100 Intro Regular points isn't really ready to compete at Champs at all , but it's that handler's choice to enter.  IMO, if the category is truly "PreElite", then the dog shouldn't have any Elite Regular points.
Linda

[Chris Nelson]

I think that would make for a pretty rough pre-elite class.

Being in Elite does not make you a Championships level competitor by its self.   I think you could go to any trial and find a multitude of dogs running in Elite that would struggle immensely in the Elite division at Champs.

Really if this was an issue it's something that should have been brought up BEFORE champs this year.    Not after the official requirements have been posted to our site.

It's something we can consider, but it won't happen for 2018. 

[KarissaKS]

Is it worth revisiting the goals of Pre-Elite versus the Elite division, and the requirements that apply?

I feel like the Elite requirements of allowing Q's from Open or Elite stem back to the days when the Pre-Elite division didn't exist -- so if you were going to Champs at all, you at least needed that Open title. You knew that you were likely going up against teams with far more experience, but if you were running in Open at least the courses wouldn't be massively over your head.

It seems to me that the requirement of Q's from Open and a specified number from Elite would now be more appropriate for a Pre-Elite division, and the requirements for the Elite division could be bumped up to require ALL Q's from the Elite level.

I felt that a fairly large number of Pre-Elite teams this year were over-faced and in over their head, and this is likely due to the very lenient requirements placed on that class. If a team has never competed beyond Intro or Novice, and they have never done 12 weave poles or other skills required at the higher levels, a Championships event is not the place to introduce these skills.

Side runs are offered in every level, and this is a great opportunity that allows for teams of all levels to attend Championships and run their dogs -- but I feel that the "big ring" runs should be featuring dogs who are truly prepared for the challenges in front of them -- and really, an Open level title should be the bare minimum of expectations for those courses. The last thing I want is for Championships courses to be made "easier" to accommodate teams of all levels.

I am quite aware that the number of Pre-Elite entries was very high this year, which I'm sure largely contributed to "the largest East coast Champs entry in 10+ years." But I guess, are we going for quantity or quality? If we want to continue offering a division for Intro & Novice competitors I would recommend taking it out of the big ring where perhaps there is less pressure and the courses can be set more to the level of those teams.

[ricbonner]

"I've always disagreed with the name "Pre-Elite" because if a dog may have up to 100 points in Elite Regular prior to running in Championships it would now be an "Elite" *titled* dog per NADAC rules. Let's be honest - it could have it's OUTSTANDING Elite title."

It is my understanding the outstanding title in Elite Regular requires 200 points.  So an outstanding title in Elite Regular would disqualify a dog from competing in Pre-Elite.

I don't think the name is particularly important.  Its a division at Champs for less experienced dogs to be able to compete in with out having to face off with the more experience dogs.  I have never run in Pre-Elite - but I think it is great that these dogs(and handlers) have an opportunity to experience the big event.

--Ric Bonner

[Foomin Z]

If preparedness is the concern here, I would expect that Qs in weavers and barrelers classes should be part of the qualification requirements, considering the mega-weavers course and the barrelers course at 2017 champs on Saturday.

I can understand the ideas behind maybe not running a pre-elite division at champs at all. My young dog did way better than expected, but the four days was too much for her. I didn't even put her in "side-runs," which probably would have been a better option for her to be at a new location.

[mephalon]

From a different perspective.   
My girl qualified for Pre-Elite at the Intro level.    She hates weaves and at 12 1/2 that ain't gonna change.   However-  she placed in Round 4 at Champs so she obviously was up to the challenge of at least one Champs course (that round was the same for all levels too).   I knew we were going to Champs with no expectation of doing well since we didn't weave however we had a grand time running in the big ring and that is all I wanted to experience.   Had Pre-Elite not been there we would not have had that opportunity.

My boy- who is much more proficient at obstacles struggled with the atmosphere-  he qualified to be there in Novice and Open levels- I keep him through Superiors but I could have gotten him qualified for Elite had I chosen to push him. 

I think having both Elite and Pre-Elite at Champs is wonderful- I don't see the downside.   It provides opportunity for everyone- and not everyone is going with the expectation to win- some just want to be a part of the party.

Experiencing Champs was the goal for me and the Pre-Elite Division allowed me to do that.     I did not feel overwhelmed by the course challenges-  it's Champs I expected to be tested.    I see nothing wrong with offering both levels and I hope that doesn't change.

M

[Chris Nelson]

I think what really needs to happen is a more detailed explanation on the website of what is required at Championships in both Elite and Pre-Elite.

And it is worth noting that the requirements for Pre-Elite have been very close to the same every year it's been used, including the last time we were at Springfield when we only had 180 dogs...So that's not the reason we had so many entries this year.    We had more Pre-Elite dogs this year, but we also had more Elite Dogs.

Maybe the name is misleading since Elite dogs could be entering into Pre-Elite.   But I still stick with my original comment that just because you are in Elite does not mean you are ready for the Elite division at Championships.

[Ed and Tres]

I totally agree with what Mary just said.

Belle qualified with Intro Qs but once she got those 10 she was then entered in all subsequent trials at her appropriate Novice Regular level and starting getting Qs with a set of 6 weave poles.

With Champs going to Wyoming next year the next time Belle may go to Champs will be 2019 and she will be 6 years old and maybe still in Pre-Elite in regular. She has to climb thru the Novice regular level and then thru Open.

The experience of her being in the Big arena with people in the Stands, horse smells in the dirt was great and if in 2 years she makes it back to Champs she may do much better. Plus her handler who was very nervous in the big arena too will also have this experience under her belt too.

All I wanted to say was that people should know the Pre-Elite course may consist of a set of 12 weave poles, which Belle has trained for in classes, the course may have 5 or 6 sets of 6 weaves poles, which Belle did about half of them OK.

This experience was invaluable for a young dog and new handler. Do not make the Pre-Elite qualifications harder. If you go and spend dollars to attend many NADAC to get your qualifications and willing to spend $300 plus travel expenses to go to Champs then let the Pre-Elite teams come to Champs.

The individual handler should be the judge if they are ready for the Champs experience if they qualify.

[dogrsqr]

I agree with Mary and Ed.  I would really hate to see pre-elite go away.  I think it's an awesome opportunity and there are many pre-elite teams that are well prepared to be there. 

There will always be teams that don't show their best at Champs be it in Elite or Pre-elite.  I returned to Champs for the first time in 13 years.  I went with one expectation ..... To have fun.  I did and so did my dog.  We ran only one course clean at the Elite level.  I'm sure there were many pre-elite teams that did better than we did. 

To be honest with you one of the reasons I quit going to Champs was because of comments about the quality of teams at the Champs. 

Gina Pizzo

[Sharon Nelson]

I think what really needs to happen is a more detailed explanation on the website of what is required at Championships in both Elite and Pre-Elite.

And it is worth noting that the requirements for Pre-Elite have been very close to the same every year it's been used, including the last time we were at Springfield when we only had 180 dogs...So that's not the reason we had so many entries this year.    We had more Pre-Elite dogs this year, but we also had more Elite Dogs.

Maybe the name is misleading since Elite dogs could be entering into Pre-Elite.   But I still stick with my original comment that just because you are in Elite does not mean you are ready for the Elite division at Championships.

Chris, we had 258 dogs, after scratches, in Springfield, in 2016.  We started with 273, but then had some with injuries, in heat, handlers injured, etc.  258 at the event.

197 in Double Digit and Elite
51 in Pre-Elite
10 in Stakes

I am not sure where the 180 number comes in.

Sharon

[Vicki Storrs]

I think what really needs to happen is a more detailed explanation on the website of what is required at Championships in both Elite and Pre-Elite.

And it is worth noting that the requirements for Pre-Elite have been very close to the same every year it's been used, including the last time we were at Springfield when we only had 180 dogs...So that's not the reason we had so many entries this year.    We had more Pre-Elite dogs this year, but we also had more Elite Dogs.

Maybe the name is misleading since Elite dogs could be entering into Pre-Elite.   But I still stick with my original comment that just because you are in Elite does not mean you are ready for the Elite division at Championships.

Chris, we had 258 dogs, after scratches, in Springfield, in 2016.  We started with 273, but then had some with injuries, in heat, handlers injured, etc.  258 at the event.

197 in Double Digit and Elite

51 in Pre-Elite
10 in Stakes


I am not sure where the 180 number comes in.

Sharon

We weren’t in Springfield in 2016. We were there in 2013 and 2015...
Vicki