Author Topic: New rule changes  (Read 1499 times)

Re: New rule changes
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2017, 08:17:06 AM »
You can think this is negative or not, and not post it, but I'm sad to see this rule change along with the end obstacle rule change, and the leash change. I've been doing agility for 30 years. It could take longer with every dog that has to have this extra time (which I consider training in the ring) thus adding time to the length of the trial. Plus now we throw our leashes and have to pick them up and open them up before we can put the leash on our dog. Is a dog really ready to trial without a start line stay ? Is a dog really connected to the handler and working if they run by the last obstacle ? I feel both are training issues, not rule issues. We are NADAC not other venues. Train your dog before you trial. I'd like to hear more from other people what they think . Please speak up folks.

My dog is in elite and competes quite well.  There are times when he breaks his stay and I allow it because with the number of trials I do and with the cost, I am not willing to go back and train.  Yes, that is "my bad" but also my choice.  If I was able to walk back to him and reset him, he would keep his stay....  As for my baby dog, it would be VERY beneficial for me to be able to go back and sit her but back down, or to go back and have her paying attention to me.  I can't tell you how many times I have seen a dog sitting on the line with the handler out and they simply won't start.  Why?  Who knows.  These are dogs and we can't read their mind.  Maybe they got distracted or maybe they are a bit uncomfortable.  But IMO it is far worse for a dog to be "stuck" at the start line as the hooman does the dance to get them started, than for the hooman to be able to take a few steps back and get the dog's attention. 

I know my elite level (Triple Superior Versatility) dog, doesn't like start stays, and if I am forced to do it, she will sit and stare at me before she actually starts, if I could take a few steps back towards her, that would help greatly. 

I have also had my dog run past a last obstacle simply because I pushed a bit too much in a tight space.  My dog was VERY connected with me because he followed my body language.  The last obstacle is no different than the third obstacle in my opinion for something like that.  And why should I lose a tough chances Q because the dog missed the last obstacle when he is allowed to miss any other? 
Audri, Lily, Cee Cee and Toto, Calypso

Sandy Langan

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Re: New rule changes
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2017, 08:20:54 AM »
I agree with Jeannie, well said.  If people relax so do the dogs, which equals fun for everyone. Sandy Langan

Re: New rule changes
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2017, 08:24:09 AM »
And my final thought of the night.

It's incredibly hard to get handlers to improve if they aren't present.
I don't know about anyone else, but I can't help a handler with their start lines at my trial and encourage them to train better, if they are attending the CPE trial down the street.

I haven't quite mastered that skill.

Absolutely true! 
Audri, Lily, Cee Cee and Toto, Calypso

Rosemary

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Re: New rule changes
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2017, 09:07:36 AM »
I think the rule change is a good one.  I watched a competitor get and E on a beautiful run with her young dog because she literally moved one foot back to remind her dog to stay put.  She didn't even realize that she had done that.

I have personally had the last obstacle ruin lovely runs on more than one occasion.  In fact, it was the first (and only) time my dog did perfect contacts.  So many runs (not just mine) have been ruined by that simple mistake.  I am really pleased that they can fix it now. 

As far as extra time, most people correct that last obstacle anyway.  It's almost a reflex. 

None of these changes will cause any problems, in my opinion, but may help us to lure some folks back to NADAC.  Here in the Northeast AKC, CPE and USDAA have a very strong presence.  I would love to see NADAC get some of those folks wanting to play with us.

Amy McGovern

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Re: New rule changes
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2017, 09:29:33 AM »
I love the new rule as it makes things more consistent.  The last obstacle thing bit us a number of times with the younger dogs.  And even sometimes with the older ones!  As for start line stays, it is important to let that be up to the team.  I've run 4 dogs in NADAC now and two of them completely stressed out on start line stays so we simply stopped them.  The 3rd one loves her stay (for my son!) and the 4th one needs a stay to put her brain in gear.  But if my next dog (#5, whoever she will be) stresses on stays, then I would immediately drop it.  It has to be FUN for the dog as that is why we are all doing this.  It isn't about the Qs or the ribbons.  Those are just reminders of the fun and the teamwork! 
Amy and the schnauzers

Rsquared

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Re: New rule changes
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2017, 07:35:41 PM »
I love the new rule changes!  I’ve seen too many inadvertent step(s) taken back toward the dog, without the handler even realizing it, creating “E”s on otherwise perfect runs. Clearly, these weren’t instances of training. This leaves handlers, esp. the new ones, feeling NADAC is an unfair organization and newbies may seek greener Qing pastures.  Personally, I like having a start line and fought hard (3 years!) to get one with Scooter (anyone remember me screaming bloody murder in Moab????).  This rule was initially put in place to keep trials moving along but honestly, long lead outs with perfect start lines eat up lots of trial time, too!
Ronni in San Diego with Scooter, Ollie & Xtra Crispy (R.I.P. Sage)

Foomin Z

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Re: New rule changes
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2017, 07:39:13 PM »
First let me start with...I came into agility from competitive obedience (not rally). You can think this is negative or not, and not post it, but I'm sad to see this rule change along with the end obstacle rule change, and the leash change. I've been doing agility for 30 years. It could take longer with every dog that has to have this extra time (which I consider training in the ring) thus adding time to the length of the trial. Plus now we throw our leashes and have to pick them up and open them up before we can put the leash on our dog. Is a dog really ready to trial without a start line stay ? Is a dog really connected to the handler and working if they run by the last obstacle ? I feel both are training issues, not rule issues. We are NADAC not other venues. Train your dog before you trial. I'd like to hear more from other people what they think . Please speak up folks. 
At the last NADAC trial I went to, after the recent champs, I saw two different people leave their dog in the start line stay. The dogs got up. The handlers halted their forward motion, twisted at the waist to turn back to their dogs, and told the dogs to sit/stay. That is more clearly training a start line stay than someone who is trying to unfreeze a dog off the start line and takes a few steps back to encourage the dog to come, or a dog who started to move forward but then got distracted by a smell before performing the first obstacle. However, this waist turn and re-cue was not against the rules. Doing the re-cue and staring to make sure the dog sits again takes up time too.

BeckyAH

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Re: New rule changes
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2017, 08:05:48 AM »

 than someone who is trying to unfreeze a dog off the start line and takes a few steps back to encourage the dog to come, or a dog who started to move forward but then got distracted by a smell before performing the first obstacle.

This is something I think a lot of people forget or just don't notice happening - and it happens mostly with green dogs, or green dogs with new handlers.  It's a thing.  The last obstacle being missed or run past is something I also see cost a lot of novice teams (as in handler and dogs) Qs.   Being able to give new handlers and dogs success *MATTERS* when it comes to getting those people to come back and keep playing.   It's just plain huge and I think Chris is dead on with it.   

I also think it's important to remember that NADAC has always, with extended titles, not requiring move-ups and allowing drop backs in levels,  encouraged handlers to set and meet their own goals.

I don't put my dog in a trial setting if they can't hold a stay at the start.  I don't put my dog in a trial if they can't do 12 weaves.  I don't feel particularly fantastic about a run where my dog got a Q but was running at 2.5 YPS on an elite course.   I also sure as heck don't want to see other people forced to have those requirements  for themselves.

I have seen more new dog/handler teams showing up and coming back since the introduction of intro than I had before - and I'll tell you straight up, I was a 'if your dog can't do a novice course, maybe don't enter a trial' person before.  I'm seeing the smaller and slower teams get excited about playing again because they're succeeding instead of right on the verge of quitting because their tiny dog *CAN"T* make course time.   I see people more happy to come out and play because they have a little success and they get a ribbon.

Their success isn't taking anything away from anyone.   Being able to Q at 2.5 YPS doesn't mean I'm not still pushing for 4.5 YPS Qs.  Them being able to enter intro or tunnelers or step back to verify a startline or correct a last obstacle doesn't mean I need to do it.  Giving new people success and helping them find the joy and fun isn't... devaluing the elite competitor's success or NATCH.  It's just making the venue more accessible and enjoyable to people. 

That's a GOOD thing.

(And I would be very surprised if we suddenly see a ton of dogs who can't hold startlines as they move up levels, or who keep blowing past the last obstacle as they gain experience.  These things, in particular.  It's just making NADAC a little more newbie friendly.)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 08:07:38 AM by BeckyAH »

dogrsqr

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Re: New rule changes
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2017, 09:04:45 AM »
As far as I know you can still get faulted for delay of start.  Trying to get a dog to leave the startline is a training issue just as getting a dog to stay at the startline is.

Gina
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BeckyAH

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Re: New rule changes
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2017, 09:13:03 AM »
As far as I know you can still get faulted for delay of start.  Trying to get a dog to leave the startline is a training issue just as getting a dog to stay at the startline is.

Gina

If you go back more than 3 times or take excessive time.  Yes, it's a training issue (sometimes yes, sometimes - sort of)   It's usually a STRESS issue rather than failing to understand behavioral criteria, and that stress is often unique to the trial environment.  Much like running past the last obstacle it is also an issue that usually disappears with exposure to being in a trial and some support and encouragement.  Which means it needs worked in a trial. 

Removing a Q from those dogs/people doesn't speed the trial up, anyway.  They're still going to take the time to get the dog to go (or trying to) and running the course.  It just means those people are more likely to return to the trial because they got a pretty ribbon, and *didn't* get told on no uncertain terms 'you don't belong here because your dog is experiencing minor stress in a trial'.

(These issues, for the record, don't impact me directly.  They're not things my dogs do.  But I see them and I am a little heartbroken when I do, especially in novice handlers who DO get discouraged and go away.)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 09:18:03 AM by BeckyAH »

Edraith

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Re: New rule changes
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2017, 09:24:22 AM »
“Letting others experience  success doesnt devalue your own.”
BOOM.
Nailed it.

If someones value of agility is measured by how many people they can Do Better Than, I would question their motives.  ;)
Amata & Edraith
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dogrsqr

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Re: New rule changes
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2017, 09:37:38 AM »
I don't have a problem with the rule change but stress is a training issue.  I've had dogs who stressed and had to find opportunities to train thru it.  I object to people inferring that a dog breaking a stay is more objectionable than a dog not wanting to start ...... and they can both be caused by stress.  My dog has developed a startline stay issue because of too much commotion behind her at those really tight trial sites and because of leash runners moving towards her when I've left her in a stay. Some dogs are extremely sensitive to pressure.  I also have to find ways to work on this in training but it hasn't made much difference.  I have reverted to being the "not so nice" person who drops their leash on the other side of the dog to keep leash runners from approaching my dog before she's been released.

Gina
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Abbey, Trek and Shay

BeckyAH

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Re: New rule changes
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2017, 10:03:26 AM »
I also have a dog who breaks when she's stressed.  I don't actually consider stress a training issue.  I consider it a behavioral issue, and it needs worked through but for me training is limited to not understanding the criteria or having the criteria re: distance, duration, or distraction raised too quickly.  That's me. Other people may and clearly do define differently and behavioral things still need worked through but for me that is also not about training -ie: teaching - it's about changing an emotional state.   But again, that's me and me explaining my word usage.

That said, I don't find one more objectionable than the other, I just dislike the amount of talk about broken startlines as though it's the only conceivable issue someone would step back.  It isn't.  That's about the full extent of that one. 

Kyle

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Re: New rule changes
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2017, 08:32:31 AM »
I don't have a problem with the rule change but stress is a training issue.  I've had dogs who stressed and had to find opportunities to train thru it.  I object to people inferring that a dog breaking a stay is more objectionable than a dog not wanting to start ...... and they can both be caused by stress.  My dog has developed a startline stay issue because of too much commotion behind her at those really tight trial sites and because of leash runners moving towards her when I've left her in a stay. Some dogs are extremely sensitive to pressure.  I also have to find ways to work on this in training but it hasn't made much difference.  I have reverted to being the "not so nice" person who drops their leash on the other side of the dog to keep leash runners from approaching my dog before she's been released.

Gina

Instead of being the "not so nice" person to the human volunteer, why not kindly "train" them to do their volunteer job correctly? Kind of like kindly "training" the stay at a start line to your dog? Instead of making the volunteer's job more difficult, just ask them (with a smile  :)) to please wait until after your dog has competed the first obstacle to move forward to pick up the leash. A little bit of polite "training" on your part might make it better for everyone else too!  :)

Of course, if you feel you're not going to be able to speak to the leash runner, before the morning briefing you could always ask the judge to please cover this in their briefing. It could be added to what they already cover in regard to leash handling. I'm sure many judges would be happy to do this.

If we're allowing some extra training for the dogs, why not do a little extra training for our generous volunteer workers?  ;D

-Kyle
Kyle
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MoabDiane

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Re: New rule changes
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2017, 05:38:01 PM »
What Kyle said.

For one of my dogs, he wears his harness going TO the line, as he pulls (yeah, a training issue....) very hard.
But after the run, he is all "mine" and a slip lead is perfectly satisfactory.
I have the slip lead attached to the harness, and ask the leash runner to please hand me the "slip" end, and I usually tell them, "Just forget there's a harness attached to the other end."
I've never had a problem when I've asked.  Politely, of course.

diane