Author Topic: Live chat November 30th  (Read 488 times)

Chris Nelson

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Live chat November 30th
« on: November 30, 2017, 01:37:28 PM »
7pm mountain time in the official Nadac Facebook group.

Will be in regards to the VT program and itís future.

Once the Facebook chat has ended we will immediately upload to YouTube and post the video here along with posting to the Nadac website in the announcements page.

All of that will take a few hours so please be patient.


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Chris Nelson

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Re: Live chat November 30th
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2017, 06:21:26 PM »

Amy McGovern

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Re: Live chat November 30th
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2017, 06:44:27 PM »
Chris, would there be a way to train to be a VT judge?  I don't have a desire to be a regular NADAC judge due to all my day job constraints but I would gladly do a training program to be a VT judge to help with this.  We would presumably learn all the rules as if we were to be trial judges but it would just be our job to ensure rules are followed at VTs.

Btw, we LOVE the VT program!  I really don't want to see it go away. It is a great program! 
Amy and the schnauzers

KarissaKS

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Re: Live chat November 30th
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2017, 07:26:24 PM »
I have never been shy about voicing my dislike for the VT program due to the fact that I have always thought people break the rules. Call me a pessimist if you will, but it is WAY too easy for people to set up a course, train on it, take video, and submit their best run. Even in cases where multiple people train together, someone could say they are recording subsequent attempts for their own purposes and then end up submitting one of those runs later at home -- who would know? My stance has grown even stronger after talking to several people who make it sound like they don't think it's a big deal at all to run the course several times until they get it right.

At the start of the VT program the Qs/points/titles were kept separate from the traditional "trial-earned" titles. I am 100% okay with that. I don't know that I even care if people do "break the rules" and train first, because those titles are given a different "weight" than those earned at trials. A percentage of Champs qualifiers could come from the VT program, but I do not think that VT Qs are equal to those earned at a real trial under trial stress in new places on new equipment. Qualifying runs in the VT program should earn VT titles (NATCH-VT, if you will). It never should have been combined with the regular program.

I still feel that you should police the program and try to enforce the rules, but the VT program should be separate from trial points. Maybe people would be less likely to abuse the system if they weren't trying to earn points towards their "real NATCH." One can hope.

Final comment -- While I do not participate in the VT program and I never will, I do appreciate having the courses posted because I keep them and pull from them for my classes. I hope that there might be another way to continue to offer a course library if courses are not being posted for VT?
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KellyDittmar

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Re: Live chat November 30th
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2017, 07:53:16 PM »
We have done some VT runs and I can't imagine anyone I know cheating.  I honestly don't know what kind of sense of accomplishment you can get from cheating. 

I think having someone else verify your runs is a step in the right direction, but if there's already some groups of people cheating that's not really going to change anything.

I have actually found the VT runs to be tougher.  Dogs and people are often in a different frame of mind when you're just doing a couple of runs in someone's back yard.  There are also other distractions that you don't have at a normal trial.  I remember once Abbey went out around a bunch of daisies  ;D

Gina
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Lorrie Stelz

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Re: Live chat November 30th
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2017, 01:06:59 AM »
My only 2 issues with VT runs are this---

I see many dogs who can "pass" a VT run in an area they are comfortable with (like in their training area), but can't pass those same courses at a trial due to trial atmosphere.  I think dogs should be able to pass those courses *anywhere* and they need to be taken out of their comfortable environment and tested like everyone else is.  (for example... I know some dogs can pass Chances at the VT area, but can't pass at a trial due to trial "stress", and another example... contacts tend to be less accurate in trials than in the VT area due to the high trial excitement.)  I think the VT runs can give some dogs an advantage, but they should be able to pass tests in the trial environment.

I have always thought they take away from people going to actual trials and supporting them. I've noticed this with one or two in my area.  And, the people holding the trials need to have entries to keep the trials continuing.  If people can run VT runs in their backyard, why would they need to travel to trials?  To keep trials active, people need to go and support them.

My thought is that only 50% of VT Qs earned should be allowed for titles/NATCHs, etc, as it was when it first started.  That would solve the two issues I mentioned.  I think VT should stay, but some rules changed.

Just my 2 cents...
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 03:59:33 AM by Lorrie Stelz »
Lorrie Stelz

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Maureen deHaan

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Re: Live chat November 30th
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2017, 03:21:20 AM »
We have done some VT runs and I can't imagine anyone I know cheating.  I honestly don't know what kind of sense of accomplishment you can get from cheating. 

I think having someone else verify your runs is a step in the right direction, but if there's already some groups of people cheating that's not really going to change anything.

I have actually found the VT runs to be tougher.  Dogs and people are often in a different frame of mind when you're just doing a couple of runs in someone's back yard.  There are also other distractions that you don't have at a normal trial.  I remember once Abbey went out around a bunch of daisies  ;D

Gina


People cheat - I've been witness to it and I've heard people talking about it  - it's pretty sad bc this is a GAME / SPORT and that illustrates not only a lack of integrity but also poor sportsmanship. It is difficult to be a snitch when we are all adults - no one should have to snitch bc no one should be cheating -in ANY REGARD in this sport - but alas, it happens far too frequently -

That being said I've also been at VT runs, run by a NADAC judge where everything was on the up and up -
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knittingdog

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Re: Live chat November 30th
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2017, 05:16:18 AM »

Why not take a different twist on the VT program.  Make it so that practicing the course is fine and then have a separate titling program for it.  For example, NATCH-VT, WV-N-VT.  VT Q's don't mix with live trial Q's, people are able to work towards something, and it takes out the need for policing of any kind.

Some of you may say that there's no point to this kind of a program - where you can practice the courses and send them in, but there are a lot of dogs for whom VT may be the best option.  Many dogs have great agility skills, but the trial environment is too challenging for them.   A program like this allows them to get acknowledgement for their agility skills in a place where the dog feels safe.

It also gives those who can't get to trials easily a way to earn titles and have something to show regarding what their dog can do.

We ran VALOR trials at my facility for about 2 years and we had a blast with it!  Most of the dogs that came didn't have any kind temperament issues.  People came to practice, get their young dogs ready for the live trial environment, and just have fun with their dogs for an afternoon or evening.  We had a regular group of people that came almost every month and had a LOT of fun with it.

Robin


dogrsqr

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Re: Live chat November 30th
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2017, 05:22:48 AM »
I can honestly say that if I was witness to anyone cheating I would have NO problem reporting them.  Actually I'd probably confront them right then and there.

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AndreaEntin

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Re: Live chat November 30th
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2017, 06:03:45 AM »
I like the idea of a VT title program or bring back the 50% as you had before. 

If there is a judge ava in certain areas maybe they can oversee the VT runs.

Andrea

Rosemary

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Re: Live chat November 30th
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2017, 09:26:06 AM »
I like the idea of keeping VT points separate from trial points and the titles earned should reflect that (VT-EAS, VT-NATCH...)  I'm not sure how to prevent people from cheating on VT runs unless you require a judge to be there and I'm not sure how that would work.  I don't have all the equipment to do VT runs and I'm not sure I would do one anyway, but I do like seeing the courses that are posted as they give me some neat ideas for training.  I do hope that opportunity does not go away.

danforth

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Re: Live chat November 30th
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2017, 01:07:30 PM »
I also do not have space or equipment to run VT courses.  They do provide me with thought problems,  I can set up a 3. or 4 obstacle sequence and do that.  or just run a virtual course in my head.

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RobertStewart

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Re: Live chat November 30th
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2017, 06:43:44 AM »
we've even had a judge in training currently, to come down and help me with course building, how to pace (someone had said we were setting the courses to 'short') so, I learned more about how to pace the set up and quite a lot actually. We often do VT's as a fund raising event for the local animal shelter. We were totally slammed with attendees, competing in Intro classes. We always did a briefing and walk through and answered questions. Most intro competitors have a LOT of questions. They learned to NOT bring treats, why judges say good luck etc.  Often have to remind people this is not another venue and to not wander around with their dogs.  It's been an amazing training opportunity for so many total beginners.

I hope the program will be able to come back. The possibility of restructuring i do find interesting and I hope some viable solutions are found. Limitations to the number of VT's available or percentages are all great ideas. I don't personally like VT titles as opposed to non-VT titles. When NADAC got shed of the  divisions between Proficient skilled veterans, and made it a Q is a Q is a Q. I thought that was a brilliant idea. It also makes the transition so much easier as our dogs get older and older. (and us handlers get older and older) Percentages do make some sense towards titles and championship.

I do not think that the suspension of VT's will help any clubs trials increase in numbers however. But then after a few months we'll know that information as well.


Robert
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