Possible VT solutions

[Lin Battaglia]

Cut down your work load by giving it back to only the remote people. Mileage to be determined by you but maybe 300 miles from trials ? They need it the most. But you still need to require them to travel to at least one trial a year. Separate them out from all the other trial points and give them only VT points with no titles earned thru those points. They would have to go to a trial to earn the final run for that title. Question ...How are yardage and times calculated for VTs ? Not everyone can set a course correctly.

[dogrsqr]

If it's really such a big deal just get rid of VT runs.  Our opportunities to trial are never going to be equal across the country anyway.

Hope the people who were cheating are happy with themselves.

Gina

[Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso]

So reading all of the responses, here is my take on it all.

As far as runs counting towards Top 10.  I am indifferent.  It really doesn't matter to me.  Those to me are fun awards and while it is nice to say that my dog was in the Top 10.  In the grand scheme of things, it really isn't a big deal.

Cost of the VT runs:  Again, I am indifferent.  Yes, it might make them $15.00 per run BUT you are only paying the $10.00 if you Q, so in reality, your NQ runs are $5.00 so that does cut down on the cost there.  Most trials I go to cost $10.00 per run (because I run a LOT of runs) and that is whether I Q or not.  I have a beagle that I run.  I generally get MAYBE 1-2 Q's out of 6-8 runs... Not a great percentage so her Q's can cost me $60-80.

Trial distance:  Again, not a huge deal to me, but you do have to take into consideration travel time as well as distance. 

Separate program/less points for a Q:  This just doesn't make sense to me.  The entire purpose of a VT run was to get people who CAN'T get to trials because of distance, work or other reasons a way to get some Q's to work towards their titles.  No, no one is "guaranteed" a title, BUT if you have either NO trials or have to trial 6-8 hours for 3-4 trials per year, or work weekends and can't always get to trials, would you continue to do NADAC trials knowing you might never get those titles?  Not likely, you are more likely to change venues and do something that you can actually earn those titles in.  Yes, there are those that just LOVE the venue and would do that, and there are those that would say, I do it for the joy of trialing and NOT the titles.  But I know for me, and for many other people, if I don't feel that I am working towards something, then I wouldn't do it.  I wouldn't spend the money.  I would find another venue or event to do spend it on.  People who have an abundance of NADAC just don't get that.  If I had only 4 trials per year, it would take me 12 trials (or 3 years) if I Q EVERY run to get enough Q's for a NATCH.  And since we all know that there is no way to Q every run, it would take far more than that.  And that is if I move up immediately, which I NEVER do with my dog.  I would more likely turn to AKC, which has far more trials in far more places. 

I do agree with what someone said earlier, (and I don't remember the exact quote) about it being cheaper to do VT for her titles and her debt wouldn't be as big, but she enjoys going to trials because of the people.  I think that the main reason I like agility so much is because I get to meet a whole bunch of really nice people while I am there.  Yes, I am spending time with my dogs, but I can do that with a walk in the woods, a visit to the pet store, just staying at home and playing with them and it wouldn't cost me much.  And yes, my dogs love agility, but again, I can do that with renting a facility, etc.  And quite honestly, my dogs like to do things with me so agility or not, they would be pretty happy as long as they are with me.  So, the main reason I do agility is because I get to hang with some really great people. VT runs just don't allow me that unless we have a group doing them.  Agility is actually more for ME than it is for my dogs.

As far as no other venues that allow VT, true.  BUT that is what makes NADAC, NADAC.  Most venues don't allow training in the ring either, but we all LOVE NADAC for that.  Most venues use the teeter and NADAC doesn't and we all love NADAC for that.  NADAC doesn't have refusals and we all love NADAC for that.  Most venues have tight courses, back side jumps and NADAC doesn't and we love NADAC for that.  When I started agility, AKC didn't allow mixed breed dogs so I wasn't even ELIGIBLE to compete with them.  It wasn't until 2 years later that they allowed them, and then, the clubs had the choice, and around my area, clubs didn't allow them.  So, every venue has their own set of rules and regulations.  You either like them or not but that is what makes each venue special.

[Dheavner]

Just an FYI......Trial attendance is down across all venues.....at least they are in Texas. 

[Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso]

Just an FYI......Trial attendance is down across all venues.....at least they are in Texas.

Right.  Agility is expensive and with the current economy, people have to cut back on things.  I see it here in Illinois as well.  AKC used to have HUGE wait lists for shows and I rarely hear my friends talking about being wait-listed anymore. 

[Lin Battaglia]

Yes, trials used to have wait lists to get in. Drop the VTs and bring back the people that only do VTs. Perhaps help trials.

[KarissaKS]

So instead of this round and round bickering about the VT program (either you support it or you don't), perhaps our energy would be better spent at figuring out how to build trial attendance and bring NADAC trials to the areas of the country that are lacking. Because face it, VT has not helped to build trial attendance up to this point, so I'm pretty sure it never will. If anything, the VT program *degrades* how other-venue folks feel about NADAC. They think it's a joke and that the titles hold no value when you can earn them at home. I've had this conversation with a lot of people at non-NADAC trials.

There is no CPE in my region. There is no UKI in my region. There is very little USDAA in my region. There is a ton of AKC and we're up to 13 NADAC trials for 2018. If I want to participate in UKI I have to travel 5-6 hours. Same for USDAA aside from the handful of trials within 90 minutes (3-4 a year). I'm not sure why this is the fault of those organizations. If I want to do more UKI or USDAA then it's kind of up to me to try to build up interest in my area and find out how to make them happen. I'm not making a plea for them to allow me to submit runs via video. How did this become such an expectation and DEMAND of NADAC competitors?

[dogrsqr]

Just an FYI......Trial attendance is down across all venues.....at least they are in Texas.

Absolutely, they are down everywhere I know of.  There are so many competing venues and more and more trials,  not to mention other dog activities, and only so many people and dogs to go around.  People only have so much disposable income so they have to make choices.  We are at saturation and that means something has to give.

Gina

[Lin Battaglia]

I agree Gina. Too many choices everywhere. I always say pick one and do it well. Competing in only one venue helps to get titles faster. Find those trails and support them. If you do 4 venues all the time it will take longer to earn titles than if you only supported one venue.

[Mark Buehl]

I will admit,  I've never submitted a VT run, or attended a VT trial. Just had the thought that Might bring VT costs more in line with other Q's And support local clubs.  If you submit  a video,  and there is a club within 200 miles who hosts a trial that year, you add $2 to your fee.  So if you're doing VT'S in Austin, add $6 (TAG, WAG, New Hope) So your per run cost would be $11, the local clubs would get support,  win win.


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[KarissaKS]

Believe it or not, but not everyone is in this game to acquire as many titles as possible in as little time. I happen to enjoy the variety of challenges that the different organizations offer.  I have fun at NADAC trials, but in no way would I want it to be my only organization. I don't feel challenged enough by the courses in NADAC -- Except for Chances, which has always been my favorite. My dogs think it's fun, though, and I like the people, so I fit it into my schedule as able. I guarantee I won't be attending all 13 of those trials in TN next year, I'm just not willing to give up my other organizations that align better with my long term goals.

I recently stopped at a UKI trial on my way home from Wisconsin. As I said earlier, there is no UKI where I live. There is zero chance that I will obtain titles in that organization. But I entered because it was FUN. Imagine that.

[BeckyAH]

There is nothing wrong playing purely for fun.  There is also nothing wrong with having goals and trying to achieve them and making steps to make that happen.

Frankly, the attitude that if you're not in pursuit of titles you're doing it wrong is patronizing, demeaning, and obnoxious.  But so is the attitude that anyone who considers anything except having fun in deciding what to do is doing it wrong.

Unless you are not paying your bills, neglecting your family, or are hurting your dog there is NO WRONG.

I have NADAC, AKC agility, Rally, obedience, flyball, barn hunt, lure coursing, dock diving and disc available to me with a reasonable drive.  I only have so many dollars to spend on dog sports.  I only have so many hours to spend training and competing.   Both my dog(s) and I absolutely have to have fun doing it for me to do it at all, and how much fun I have is a factor in my willingness to invest time and money in it - but so is having goals (and by goals in this context I mean getting titles and moving on to the next level, or officially recognized points accumulation) and the achievability of them. 

Where my time and money goes is prioritized by first removing everything that isn't fun for both the dogs and I, and then prioritizing the places where I am able to set and pursue goals with reasonable expectation of success.

That means, yes, that anything that does not allow me to achieve titles and 'move up' in difficulty is going to get what time and money I have 'left over' from those things that do.  Which isn't a whole heck of a lot, frankly.

I have 7 'local' trials in a year with NADAC, and I'll probably add a couple that require travel this coming year.   So, not a desert and not a ton.  Enough, though.   I am able to set goals and achieve them there, so they are my first priority for my hours and my dollars.   I don't expect everyone to have those priorities, but I sure as heck expect not to be told I'm doing it wrong because I care about whether or not I can earn titles when deciding where to spend my time and money.

Titles may not mean anything to you (general you), but they mean something to ME.  Both are okay.

[KarissaKS]

As you can see by my signature line, I like titles. I was responding to the idea that we should all focus our time and efforts on one organization to get as many titles as possible (or at least that's how it came across).

I think the argument at hand is how those titles are being obtained. At trials versus not at trials.

[dogrsqr]

I only run in NADAC because the course design aligns with what I want to do with my dog.  I only run one venue but we also compete in flyball and dabble in herding.  I like the variety in doing multiple dog sports and I think the dogs enjoy it too.

Flyball doesn't require a lot of brain power for either of us, but it's just plain old fun. 

I like herding because it's awesome to see a dog do what it was bred to do.  I don't like herding trialing so much because it seems so artificial to me.  I'd probably like ranch trialing if I ever tried it.

Gina

[Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso]

I tend to agree.  I work towards titles but it is my choice.  I have limited dollars to spend, so why spread myself out and be stuck not advancing.  If there was a one-off trial, I might try it.  I was actually thinking of running some UKI or CPE with my newest dog just to try it out.  However, she isn't really built for UKI because she is long-strided and fast and doesn't do tight turns well but they have a "try it before you buy it" so it is a possibility. 

When I first started agility, AKC didn't allow mixed breed dogs.  I had a mixed breed dog so I wasn't even ALLOWED to compete in agility with them.  (I was fortunate enough, that where I trained actually did NADAC because I had no clue that there was even differences).  When they started to allow it it was only if the club allowed it.  In my area, the clubs had wait lists anyway so they didn't need to allow them.  It wasn't for a few years that some of them started to allow mixed breeds as attendance dropped at their trials and they needed the dogs to fill.   Also it is restrictive in the fact that it had to be a stand alone trial so any trial that was part of a conformation show I wasn't allowed at.  At the time that it started you weren't allowed to compete at Nationals because it was part of the conformation.  I am not sure what the ruling is now, but Westminster has their agility off site now and before conformation to get around that.  Similar to ASCA, you can compete in it all year, but then you can't compete at Nationals.  No thanks....  I won't spend my dollars at a "non-inclusive" venue. 

Quite honestly, my budget for both time and money is about 8-9 trials a year.  I can generally do that with NADAC and I like the people.  I have gone to AKC trials to watch friends and I can't believe all the snarkiness I hear coming from people about the dog on the course!  I have also gone to USDAA trials and those seem OK, but I don't really like their jump heights or their titling system.  ASCA is growing in our area, but it is similar to NADAC, so there is no reason to do that and then there is a growing amount of UKI. 

Quite honestly, I do enough other things with my dogs that I don't need to do agility every weekend.  And when I do agility, I want it to be fun.  NADAC is just that.  Maybe the courses are not as technical, and I understand those that want that, but I work other things with my dogs. 

And as far as trying to build NADAC here.  We tried, BUT in my area, the trainers are such that they hardly even acknowledge that NADAC exists.  I am currently training at an ACK facility with my newest dog because there are no other places to train and the trainer outright told me that NADAC is dying so why should I start there?  Mind you, she hadn't competed in NADAC in over 10 years.....   I had a friend that was kicked out of a class with a well-known trainer because they said they were competing in NADAC.  And while we do try to get new people to the trials, it is tough if the local trainers don't help out. 

This is a case of where VT could be helpful.  We could set up courses and bring people in, let them compete in a lesser setting, not committing a lot of money or a full day and then have some fun with it.  If they think Q, then they can send that in, if not, well then nothing lost....  And they don't need a NADAC number until they send in a video for review.  Kind of a "try it before you buy it" situation.