Author Topic: Possible VT solutions  (Read 3281 times)

JimmyS.

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2017, 06:03:01 AM »
I still feel a  100% increase isrxcesdive, especially since it dosn't support a club
But it does support the lowest priced (or tied for the lowest) venue in the country and the only venue to even offer VT to exhibitors.


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JimmyS.

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2017, 06:09:12 AM »
But the club gets some of that money. And not when you have to rent your rings


Actually - by supporting the club - which is awesome - you are actually supporting everyone who wants to get together to play with their dogs - all the $$ that clubs take in goes toward the running of the trial - at least in my area - there is very little $$ left over for a "profit" if you will - when all is said and done
In Nadacís case, even with the price increase to VT, by the time you figure on the time involved to judge all the video submissions, enter all that info into the database including put together the email system for every time someone earns a title, AND manually put together awards and spend the unbelievable mailing fees to mail them..... thereís little profit left over for Nadac as well.


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JimmyS.

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2017, 06:10:36 AM »
Question.....I read that the results of the voting will be posted Dec. 10th.....but when will any of the new rules take effect?
Chris is hoping for Jan 1. He would like to not have to suspend the program so he is trying to have everything situated by then.


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Sara Langston

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2017, 07:14:41 AM »
But the club gets some of that money. And not when you have to rent your rings


Actually - by supporting the club - which is awesome - you are actually supporting everyone who wants to get together to play with their dogs - all the $$ that clubs take in goes toward the running of the trial - at least in my area - there is very little $$ left over for a "profit" if you will - when all is said and done
In Nadacís case, even with the price increase to VT, by the time you figure on the time involved to judge all the video submissions, enter all that info into the database including put together the email system for every time someone earns a title, AND manually put together awards and spend the unbelievable mailing fees to mail them..... thereís little profit left over for Nadac as well.


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Sara Langston

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2017, 07:19:26 AM »
Oooops.  Somehow, my reply got lost on my previous post.  What I wanted to say in response to the post about what it takes to run the VT program is to not forget about the time involved in selecting, posting/monitoring the courses each week.  Also, if questions come up about a certain course, someone has to research and answer the question.  There is a lot more work to the VT program than can be seen on the surface.  Thanks, Chris, for listening to the exhibitors before making any decisions. 

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Ed and Dino

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2017, 07:33:06 AM »
I took the survey but if some of this is implemented, I suggest some detail on how to determine some of these restrictions.

For example if the 200 mile restriction is used then it should be based on Google driving directions. A 200 mile restriction by how the crow files could end up being a 300 mile driving distance, which to me is too far. I base this decision on a person coming for 1 day of trial, going and coming same day from home. Not sure how the determination is specified now.

For the within so many days of a trial, this should be made clear that it is before and after your VT run date.
Your choice here are 5 and 10 days the first will knock you out by 1 weekend trial most likely whereas a 10  day limit could knock you out from almost the whole month. There is trial within 200 miles weekend before your VT date and one weekend after your VT date then you cannot submit. You wouldn't be able to submit the following weekend either SO you just lost the whole month. I voted for 5 days on this one, I don't think you should be knocked out for a whole month!

I have never submitted a VT run but I believe it is valuable and should be kept.
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StefanElvstad

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2017, 09:12:25 AM »
I applaud the efforts to reform the VT program. Actually, I do believe that the suggestions that have been made are not so much a reform as a way to return it to a form that remains true to its original intent - provide a way for people in "NADAC deserts" to participate in NADAC activities. It was from the outset clear that you could not submit a VT run that took place when there was a trial that would be an alternative, at the time defined as within 200 miles and 5 days.

As human nature goes, it is easy to stretch boundaries and push envelopes. So there clearly are some, I believe a small minority, of people who choose to do VT as a more convenient and less expensive way to earn their points as compared to attending a trial. It has also gone to a situation where there are clubs/informal groups that have seen the opportunity to put on VT events that essentially are trials, albeit without a judge, score table and trial secretary in place, and also possibly without the necessary liability considerations in place. These developments clearly are outside of the intent of the program.

I also don't see any justification for why it should be cheaper to earn a VT Q than earning one in a trial. Amanda is managing a huge workload of judging the VT runs. In a trial, you have a continuous flow of runs, and as the judge you judge what you see. As one team has finished their run and leashed up, the next team starts. Most videos include a good amount of time for each run prior to start and also after the finish. Amanda is not only doing the role of judge for those runs, but also is the timer, score person and trial secretary. Just the work of judging these runs takes up a lot of time for someone who also needs to spend it on all the other work to support the core mission for NADAC. The current fee for VT does not really cover the time that would be best spent on other activities like course design, club support and all the administrative tasks needed to run a big ship like NADAC. Raising the submission cost to where it becomes on average neutral with trialing is reasonable in my mind.

I hope we can retain the VT program, but return it to the form that better ensures it remains within the original intent. I'm saying this as one of those who has invested, and continue to invest, a lot of time supporting the program. Nonetheless, trials represent the core priority for NADAC, and if the VT program detracts from that, it must be changed or eliminated. The efforts to reform the program have my full support and I think the palette of solutions Chris has suggested offer a good opportunity to save the program.

Personally, I think the major benefit of the program has been to supply courses for training. In many places, there is a scarcity of opportunities to find trainers that understand and support NADAC style agility. I know that many are using the courses for that purpose, and that alone is helping develop skills that encourage people to enter NADAC trials. So whatever happens to the program, I hope that at least that aspect will remain.
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Chris Nelson

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2017, 10:38:04 AM »
I think a lot of the issues that a select few are having could be solved with exceptions.

In other words if you have a valid reason for why you canít trial,  whether that be that 150 miles really is a four hour drive because of traffic,  or your work schedule doesnít allow for you to have the weekends off,  then you could get on a exception list and be allowed to submit VTs.

The only thing is that you would need to both prove it,  and your reasoning should have some validity to it.

I think that would solve the issues of the few,  while keeping the stricter rules in place for the masses where itís really needed.


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KarissaKS

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2017, 12:33:15 PM »
Purely out of curiosity, do you have data to share what percentage of qualifying runs over the last, say, 6 months have come from VT submissions versus real trials?

If the number of anywhere in the range of 25% of all qualifying runs coming from VT then there is way too much VT going on. I'm curious to know just what the comparison is.

I agree with Stefan regarding the availability of course maps. Personally, if you are trying to build up NADAC in an area that DOES have trials available on a reasonable basis (and by that I would consider a trial every month or two within a 2-3 hour drive) then I would argue that having a "NADAC Fun Day" where you set and run NADAC courses WITHOUT QUALIFYING OPPORTUNITIES would do just as much to bring people to the organization as anything else. Then the multi-venue folks could play on the Elite courses, too, where maybe they'd have more fun.

One of the biggest complaints I hear when trying to get people to come to NADAC trials is that they don't want to start over in Novice. UKI has a program where they let you start at a level equal to where you are at in another approved organization. They just take you on your word for it. Heck, even CPE lets you start at Level 3 (I don't do CPE, so maybe Level 3 is equivalent to Novice, I do not know). Might that be an idea to peak the interest and try to bring in some new blood? I realize this is completely off the subject of VT. I'm talking about real trials.
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A Jussero

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2017, 12:40:08 PM »
I trial 4 or 5 times/year because it is a 1200 mile round trip each time to my closest NADAC trial.  I end up taking 5 days for each trial so it is a large expense in time and money.  I do these trials because I love them and the people who share them.   Having the VT option gives us the opportunity to get a few titles, especially for the owner of my rented teammate to show off.  Even for VT runs, I drive 4 hours round trip plus I haul a full pickup load of agility equipment and we do not have access to use any contacts.  The field is surrounded by large apartment complexes, busy roads and sidewalks, blowing garbage, no fences, lots of distractions plus the horrendous ND winds so there are challenges here also.   Yes, there are AKC trials which are a 550 mile round trip--but I love NADAC!

We certainly are a "NADAC desert" so I hope the program can continue, it gives us the only opportunity to have something very close to a trial experience to help us when we actually get to one.  But if not,  thank you for what you have done!
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Chris Nelson

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2017, 12:45:39 PM »
I trial 4 or 5 times/year because it is a 1200 mile round trip each time to my closest NADAC trial.  I end up taking 5 days for each trial so it is a large expense in time and money.  I do these trials because I love them and the people who share them.   Having the VT option gives us the opportunity to get a few titles, especially for the owner of my rented teammate to show off.  Even for VT runs, I drive 4 hours round trip plus I haul a full pickup load of agility equipment and we do not have access to use any contacts.  The field is surrounded by large apartment complexes, busy roads and sidewalks, blowing garbage, no fences, lots of distractions plus the horrendous ND winds so there are challenges here also.   Yes, there are AKC trials which are a 550 mile round trip--but I love NADAC!

We certainly are a "NADAC desert" so I hope the program can continue, it gives us the only opportunity to have something very close to a trial experience to help us when we actually get to one.  But if not,  thank you for what you have done!

Your situation is exactly why the program was created.    And I do think that we can it going for everyone in your situation

dogrsqr

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2017, 07:27:26 AM »
So if the submission cost rises to $10 per run we will end up paying $15/run for VT runs unless of course you have room and equipment to run in your own back yard which I do not.  I will opt out of any VT at that time as well.  If I just want to practice I can do that for free where we teach.  No ..... we can't run VT there because there are poles in the building and slats on the contacts.

I think the point that someone else was trying to make is that those putting on the VT runs aren't doing it for free.  When we hold a trial the cost per run to NADAC and the judge don't add up to $10/run. 

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BeckyAH

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2017, 07:33:18 AM »
So if the submission cost rises to $10 per run we will end up paying $15/run for VT runs unless of course you have room and equipment to run in your own back yard which I do not.  I will opt out of any VT at that time as well.  If I just want to practice I can do that for free where we teach.  No ..... we can't run VT there because there are poles in the building and slats on the contacts.

I think the point that someone else was trying to make is that those putting on the VT runs aren't doing it for free.  When we hold a trial the cost per run to NADAC and the judge don't add up to $10/run. 

Gina

Without price breaks for running many runs, the cost per run in trials I attend is between 11 and 15.00 per run.  With price breaks it is down to 9 or 10.  Nowhere that I run, no matter how many runs goes lower than 9 and I've never heard of anywhere lower than 8.  Even adding in the cost per run at our VT events to submission costs,  I am at worst getting the same 15.00/run that it would cost in one of the more expensive trials.  Obviously this varies based on club and location, but those are the numbers for me.

This is also without accounting for the fact that I pay for runs that aren't Qs in a real trial, as opposed to VT where I only have to pay 2/3 of that cost if a Q.   I am DEFINITELY paying for runs that aren't Qs in in person trials  (and on a bad weekend I have had some '80.00 Qs').

So while I rarely do VT  (or submit VT, I do every event I can get to) it is STILL more cost effective than even the local trial.  For it not to be the submission cost would have to approach something like double the even increased price.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 07:39:40 AM by BeckyAH »

dogrsqr

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2017, 07:48:43 AM »
So if the submission cost rises to $10 per run we will end up paying $15/run for VT runs unless of course you have room and equipment to run in your own back yard which I do not.  I will opt out of any VT at that time as well.  If I just want to practice I can do that for free where we teach.  No ..... we can't run VT there because there are poles in the building and slats on the contacts.

I think the point that someone else was trying to make is that those putting on the VT runs aren't doing it for free.  When we hold a trial the cost per run to NADAC and the judge don't add up to $10/run. 

Gina

Without price breaks for running many runs, the cost per run in trials I attend is between 11 and 15.00 per run.  With price breaks it is down to 9 or 10.  Nowhere, no matter how many runs goes lower than 9.  Even adding in the cost per run at our VT events, you are at worst getting the same 15.00/run that it would cost in one of the more expensive trials.  Obviously this varies based on club and location, but those are the numbers for me.

This is also without accounting for the fact that I pay for runs that aren't Qs in a real trial, as opposed to VT where I only have to pay that 10.00 for Qs.    I am DEFINITELY paying for runs that aren't Qs in in person trials  (and on a bad weekend I have had some '80.00 Qs')

So while I rarely do VT it is STILL more cost effective than even the local trial.  For it not to be the submission cost would have to approach something like double the even increased price.

We don't have VT events.  There is just one person here that offers them to those interested on a weekday evening.  Usually 2 runs which vary depending on who wants which runs.  Our most expensive trials are $12/run and typically $10/run if you run the whole package.  If we charged more than that we'd probably lose entries.

I do support trials and do travel 5-6 hours to support other groups.  Our local trials have greatly diminished in the last 10 years.  It's just nice to be able to run some week nights in the summer when we know it isn't going to be 95 degrees and humid.  I'm just not willing to spend $15 a run to do that. My Q rate at VT isn't all that great either.  I'm not getting upset over it, just stating my opinion.

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JimmyS.

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2017, 08:13:15 AM »
Itís simply a difference of only paying for Qís vs paying for every run and the trial staff doing all the work vs the Nadac Office doing all the work.

There is no way to describe the amount of behind the scenes work that goes into VTís between Chris, Amanda, and Stefan.

Convenience always costs more. Thatís just life. It never fails, when itís convenient for the end user, itís twice as much work for the people offering it.


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