Author Topic: Possible VT solutions  (Read 3173 times)

Lin Battaglia

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #60 on: December 05, 2017, 09:48:44 AM »
Thx for filling us in on what the other venues do in your area.

Ed Scharringhausen

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #61 on: December 05, 2017, 07:05:28 PM »
If the program goes forward and hopefully the trial mile and day limitations remain, I donít see a need for exceptions HQ approval since it is still incumbent on the Exhibitor to get that local club running a trialís approval. No local trialing club approval = no VT exception. To my knowledge this has worked around Texas well, except for the violator(s).

Iím great with managed VTís for the 600 mile away folks particularly. God love Ďem for having the desire and option for NADAC VT structure.   And Who knows, maybe a new Group eventually develops within their geographic location.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 07:14:59 PM by Ed Scharringhausen »
Ed Scharringhausen

Chris Nelson

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #62 on: December 06, 2017, 09:05:14 AM »
If the program goes forward and hopefully the trial mile and day limitations remain, I donít see a need for exceptions HQ approval since it is still incumbent on the Exhibitor to get that local club running a trialís approval. No local trialing club approval = no VT exception. To my knowledge this has worked around Texas well, except for the violator(s).

Iím great with managed VTís for the 600 mile away folks particularly. God love Ďem for having the desire and option for NADAC VT structure.   And Who knows, maybe a new Group eventually develops within their geographic location.

For the most part I agree.

But there are outliers that would be allowed.
A couple that come to mind:

1) There is a particular area where they definitely fall under 150 miles, but it's nearly impossible to actually travel because you have to take a ferry with an impossible schedule.
2) People who were kicked out of the local clubs trials for reasons that don't really align with what NADAC views as a valid reason for kicking them out.

David Tharle

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #63 on: December 06, 2017, 09:51:11 AM »
Thanks for the examples; especially #2.  That hadn't come to mind, but certainly understandable by anyone who's been around any dog sport for any length of time. 

Always good to get more information.

Dave Tharle
Ardmore, AB
Dave Tharle
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Roger Coor

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #64 on: December 06, 2017, 10:20:14 AM »
  I like the idea of having at least several people at the site witnessing the video run that are active in NADAC.  It could even be a slot when submitting of who are several of the people who witnessed this run.
  A lot of trials are getting smaller, there are a lot of reasons for that, such as a whole lot of trials in every venue, a whole lot other activities including other dog sports competing for the "disposable dollar", and the agility community everywhere is aging.  In my area there are people that blame the VTs on smaller trials, but it is odd that the people that do the VTs are the same people that are at more of the regular trials.  In other words in my area for the vast majority that do VTs, the VTs do not replace going to trials, but actually encourage people to be chasing titles and are more likely to keep chasing titles in VTs and regular trials.
  I personally encourage VTs in my area, because we are not competing against other NADAC trials, we are competing against focusing on NADAC vs AKC, USDAA, ASCA, CPE, UKI, Nose Work, Barn Hut, Dock Diving, and the list goes on. 
  In any area if you compete in NADAC long enough you are likely to end up with more of Qs in some classes than other classes.  Having VTs is a much appreciated means of trying to balance that out.  For some they really struggle with Chances, having some VT Chances more often than trials, runs that count really helps by getting more chances (pun intended) at both trying them and getting better at them.  Since Chances is perhaps one of the more signature classes in NADAC, getting better in Chances makes going to a Regular trial much more enjoyable and likely to keep that person going to a NADAC trial. In my area now there are close to 70 or 80 AKC and USDAA trials within 150 miles, when handlers are not taught very little distance skills, those become more attractive.  VTs help keep NADAC on people's minds.
 I see knew people who are not sure if their dog and they are ready for a full trial come and try a VT.  Sometimes it shows they are not ready, but others it boosts there confidence and have a more confident attitude about going on to a full trial.
  In my area, I have not seen people opting to do VTs instead of regular trials.
  To make it less valuable or separate would kill it.

  I have no problem with extending the distance restriction, or the cost per run.  For top ten I could go either way, there are people that can go 30 to 50 trials per year within a 200 mile radius, and those are the people who get the lion's share of the top ten, a VT allows leveling the field against that, but that is certainly not the most important reason to keep VTs.  I see the VTs as having a very positive impact on agility and NADAC agility.  I do not see it as the cause of diminished trial sizes, please stop using VTs as a scapegoat.  For the people who do cheat, they are only cheating themselves and harming a really much appreciated program.

Team Bailey

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #65 on: December 06, 2017, 01:05:56 PM »
We really think the VT program needs to continue as it enhances NADAC.  We use the VT's to fill in for the awards, but also to keep our dog in shape, which is very important to us.  We love the way Sunny runs the VT's at Vision Agility.  She is the one that determines if we Q'd or not.  We are in a rather remote area and not many in our group travel the long distance to a trial.  We also like the extra practice and attempting distance once we have run the course for videotaping.  It's a great situation for us and I think NADAC would suffer with lack of attendance at trials due to people dropping out completely.  There are simple remedies to the problems with the VT program.  Let's keep a good thing going as each submission could be supervised for those that can't do it accurately themselves.   

Billie Rosen

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #66 on: December 06, 2017, 01:56:06 PM »
Chris, I have some fact questions about VT's.
   First, how many VT runs are there each year, compared to runs at NADAC trials?  Any way to get that stat?
   Second, what is your take on how many VT's are done by one or two private people, vs. a club putting them on like Jumping Chollas?
   Third, what is your take on how many VT's are done in more remote areas where NADAC trials are non-existent or pretty scarce, vs. urban areas, like Phoenix?

I think that data could really help figuring out whether they should continue and, if so, in what form with what rules.  Thanks.

Billie Rosen    agilek9s@q.com
Kruz'n (Border Terrier)  NATCH 28, Vers. NATCH 14
Klev'r (Border Terrier)  NATCH 11, Vers. NATCH 9
Book'n (Border Terrier)  working on 1st NATCH

Chris Nelson

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #67 on: December 06, 2017, 02:13:43 PM »
Chris, I have some fact questions about VT's.
   First, how many VT runs are there each year, compared to runs at NADAC trials?  Any way to get that stat?
   Second, what is your take on how many VT's are done by one or two private people, vs. a club putting them on like Jumping Chollas?
   Third, what is your take on how many VT's are done in more remote areas where NADAC trials are non-existent or pretty scarce, vs. urban areas, like Phoenix?

I think that data could really help figuring out whether they should continue and, if so, in what form with what rules.  Thanks.



Good questions!

So far in 2017 VT's have accounted for 5% of the total Q's.    Now obviously that number becomes even smaller when you account for runs V Q's at a trial, and I'm only looking at Q's submitted.

I checked a few different years, and it pretty much always stays right at 5%, give or take 0.5%

Chris Nelson

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #68 on: December 06, 2017, 02:22:07 PM »
And what cities contribute the most:

Phoenix
Tucson
Mandan
Port Orchard
Rapid City
Austin
Norman
Olalla
Virginia Beach
Scottsdale
Eatonton
Minot
Leander
Santa Rosa
Buda
Appleton
Vermilion
Moscow
Blacksburg
Huntsville
Eagle River
Greensboro
Puyallup
Glendale
Powder Springs
Hortonville
Cortez
Va Beach
Creswell
Haymarket
Clermont
Sturgeon Bay
Gold River
Lancaster
Round Rock
Cave Creek
Lloydminster
Townsend
Hewitt
Pullman
Dolores
Helena
Lakeland
McGregor
CEDAR PARK
Durango
Colorado Springs
Kaukauna
Roanoke
Newnan
Chino Valley
Virginia City
Boise
Chesapeake
neenah
Oklahoma City
Kansas City
South Wales
Mancos
Fayetteville
Lees Summit
Tempe
Prescott
Farmington
Sharon
Thonotosassa
Greenville
Louisburg
Peoria
Seattle
Valrico
Winnipeg
Atlanta
Corvallis
Saanichton
Albuquerque
Bridgeton
Knoxville
Bremerton
Douglass
Eagle
Goldenrod
New Berlin
Petaluma
Sandpoint
Akron
Bozeman
Brighton
Evansville
Hardy
Hudson Oaks
Rome
Sebring
Clinton Township
De Pere
Elk Grove
Sidney
Ardmore
Bishop
Meridianville
Plano
Windsor
Cokato
Dallas
Driftwood
Moab
North Saanich
OKC
Rapid River
Reno
Sierra Vista
Attleboro
Emmett
Flagstaff
McKinney
Prior Lake
Anchorage
Aurora
Bellingham
Chandler
Chattanooga
Forestville
Georgetown
Hesperus
Kailua Kona
Manitowoc
Mill Valley
Mokena
New London
Sparks
Victoria
Bertram
Bulverde
Denver
Fairburn
Green Bay
Lincoln
Rowlett
Sebastopol
Wichita
Belton
Billings
Caldwell
Covington
EL MIRAGE
Geyserville
Island Lake
Jefferson City
Las Cruces
Lee'S Summit
Louisville
Mammoth Lakes
Maple Valley
Maplewood
Minneapolis
Peculiar
Pflugerville
Prairie Village
Pringle
Thunder Bay
Bend
Bucyrus
Clawson
Colden
De Soto
Gower
Greenback
Hamilton
Nanaimo
OMRO
Sammamish
Snohomish
Thornton
Truckee
Vinton
Argyle
Brooks
Broomfield
Calgary
Church Hill
Decatur
East Helena
Firestone
Gladston
Greeley
Henrico
Malcolm
Mesa
Mundelein
Nevada
Palm Desert
Springfield
Venice
West Richland
Antioch
Arlington
Black Creek
Bloomington
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Butte
Cheektowaga
Craig
Escanaba
Eureka
Gaithersburg
Grass Valley
Johnstown
Kailua-Kona
Lewiston
Munising
Northridge
Overland Park
Pahoa
Richland
Riverview
Salem
St. Clair Shores
Troy
Tyler
Union
Warrensburg
Warwick
Washoe Valley
Winter Springs
Alachua
Amado
Anderson
Athens
Auburn
Ausin
Benalto
Billlings
Blue Springs
Carson City
Celina
Clearwater
Cold Lake
East Coburg
Florence
Fort Worth
Johnston
Kamuela
Keaau
Kingsford
Kingston
Kurtistown
Kyle
Larsen
Lecanto
Liberty
McLeansboro
Mechanicsburg
New Braunfels
New Richmond
Oakdale
Piedmont
Plymouth
Prescott Valley
Pula
Red Deer
Royse City
Sacramento
San Antonio
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Sheridan
SIGNAL MOUNTAIN
Springtown
Sterling Heights
Stevensville
Tampa
Vancouver
Westwood
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Foomin Z

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #69 on: December 06, 2017, 03:40:07 PM »
I don't understand why clubs and groups of people gathering to do VT runs don't just hold a real trial. Is it because they don't want to buy the ribbons and pay a judge? A lot of the other things you see at trials are not really necessary (raffles, food, etc). They are already together at a site with equipment, changing the courses and jump bar heights. All that seems to be missing is a stopwatch, which is now available on every smartphone, and a pen and paper.

If ribbons were no longer required to be given, would it make it that much cheaper to hold an official trial? Can trials in remote areas have a local person designated as a judge who does not run dogs at that particular event (I think UKI did that in the beginning before they gathered up a judges roster)? If these smaller groups only want to do a couple of courses, as opposed to six runs per day, would that help?

Chris Nelson

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #70 on: December 06, 2017, 04:50:23 PM »
The cost of a judge is usually the hardest part.

Most flights are $500-700.
Hotel for 2 nights is pretty close to $160 if you can find a cheap one.
Judging fee is $1 per run, assuming you have a REALLY REALLY small trial of maybe 200 runs, that would be $200.

So right there just in your judge you've got nearly $1200 and we have skipped a few important things.   

If you are running this in your own facility where you don't have to pay a rental fee, then it's do-able.
But as soon as you start talking about renting a facility, well there's another $1500 in most areas.

There are also fees to NADAC.   But we do have a history of waiving those fees on the incredibly small trials.

Visionagility

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #71 on: December 06, 2017, 05:24:45 PM »
 I will offer my .02 on this topic as a club and as an individual who hosts Vt runs. I see this program as a benefit to many in remote areas or not to people who are never going to travel to a trial be it 150 or 200 or more miles. I can tell you that they feel an great accomplishment every time they have a chance to work towards a title, be it any title most are not picky. As for the increase for run submission everything usual goes up at sometime so not a big deal as long as it is not more then you would pay for a run at a trial.

 As club owner, yes sometimes we do not have the entries to cover the costs of a trial weekend, that is no one's fault it is just what happens sometimes. There for yes I will host a vt day or 2 great part of this NADAC still makes some money for the weekend and a few people get a chance to work with their dogs and on titles if they choose.

Funny part for as many vt runs as I offer my Q rate as not seemed to increase seems to be about the same as a trial weekend slim to none! :)

 So i think we can come up with something that will work for most there are always going to some that can't follow rules, but that will always be true in many things.

Sharon Nelson

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #72 on: December 06, 2017, 05:27:58 PM »
I should mention that VT has had a LOT of positive response in my region and has created some additional interest. And, I know the people by me are very honest. I just hope we keep the trial as the primary goal which it sounds like you are wanting to do.

Keep up the great work, Chris!!  I am forever appreciative!!!!!

Very true!  And you are in an area where you also get good entry numbers.

Sad fact, but in some areas, people do VT because the local clubs are not nice to their competitors. 

I think that some clubs need to not complain about losing entries to VT and ask themselves, "why would a person choose to do VT instead of supporting the local trials?".   

In areas where the people continually rave about how great the clubs are, the entries are getting higher and higher.  In other areas, the entries continue to decrease and exhibitors complain that the clubs are very difficult to deal with at trials and make them feel unwelcome.

There are many reasons that people choose to do VT.  All of those reasons should be examined.

Sharon
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aprweber

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #73 on: December 06, 2017, 06:27:19 PM »
I was going to stay out of this, but as someone who both goes to trials and does VT, I will contribute to the conversation.  I do my VT runs in the summer.  My dogs are not bothered much by the heat, but I am.  I will be ill if I work and trial all day in the heat.  It is worse for me if it is an outdoor trial. I do trial in the summer, but there are consequences for me.

So, I will set a VT course to run in the morning, or early evening.  I usually have 1 or 2 other people to run their dogs as well.

There are no climate controlled arenas anywhere within a 6 hour drive that I know of.  There is an arena in Belgrade, MT that stays fairly cool, and I have gone there in July and August.  It is, according to Google, 441.8 miles away from me and a bit over 7 hours. The seven hours does not include stopping to potty 3 dogs, etc..  You can all do the math for the cost of gas, hotel, and entry fees. As a senior citizen, the long drives are getting harder and harder to do. And, as a retiree, the income is not what it once was.

I do not have exact numbers, but I believe my Q rate between trials and VT is very close.  The only differences are that there are fewer witnesses to the runs in which everything goes wrong, and I can go back and train that contact after the last obstacle.

I appreciate the VT program, and hope it will stay around.
April
April Weber

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Re: Possible VT solutions
« Reply #74 on: December 06, 2017, 07:35:18 PM »
Chris that list is awesome.  Is that total or per year? 
Amy and the schnauzers