Distance Challenges

[Sharon Nelson]

Saying 'just challenge yourself' is all well and good, but when you don't have a clue where to start the challenge is a lot closer than the bonus box lines.   And that's before accounting for individual dog/handler challenges beyond training access.  I don't need a thing needs to be made easier - I like my challenges, dammit, and quite aside from that I recognize the Bonus program as one that's for the truly elite and not me - but... awareness and compassion are good things.

Challenges are comparative.   One person's challenge can be "I can do a dog walk from 3 feet away, this next trial, I am going to attempt a 5 foot distance from the dog walk" while another person is going to attempt a 30' dog walk, after being successful at 25'.

Each of those would be great successes for each person and each one set a challenge that is appropriate to them and their dog as a team.  With each successful challenge, you grow and can push even further with success and confidence.  Maybe it is a challenge about a 5' send to a tunnel instead of a dog walk.  Then building to 8' and then 10'.

Every person can set challenges for themselves.  And each person's goals are different and they will set challenges to get them closer to their goals.

Sharon

[Kyle]

Just so we’re clear,  I’m not trying to make threats here.  Just proposing a solution.

If the general consensus is that the bonuses need to be drastically less challenging then that can happen.   But the decreased challenge that the bonuses used to have also came with a decreased reward.

We never used to have 30 point bonuses.
We didn’t have as many awards.
So I do think a decrease in difficulty would need to reflect those.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Please do not interpret what I have said as wanting "drastically less challenging" Bonuses. Personally, I think all the Bonuses I have been seeing are great and don't need any changes (and I have stated that already). Since I have never cared about awards, Chris, Amanda and Jimmy may do what they wish with those IMHO but, others may feel very differently.  As Chris and Amanda should know (and I think that Sharon already does), I love the Bonus program for giving those of us who choose not to run alongside our dog for a full course, the opportunity to do "our thing" in an organized kind of way. 

-Kyle

[dogrsqr]

Kyle the comment about those of us that choose not to run alongside our dogs for an entire course sounded a little snotty.  I don't run along side my dog and I don't attempt bonuses.  I think we all do what works for our team; no need to be judgemental.

Gina

[Kyle]

Kyle the comment about those of us that choose not to run alongside our dogs for an entire course sounded a little snotty.  I don't run along side my dog and I don't attempt bonuses.  I think we all do what works for our team; no need to be judgemental.

Gina

I apologize to anyone who may have taken what I said as being snotty. It certainly was not my intention. To be honest, I was trying to find the right words to describe running bonuses and those were the best I could figure out at the time. Once again, I apologize. I love NADAC agility because it allows for all kinds of "flavors" of agility...it's kind of like people who like cream and sugar in their coffee can have it their way, people who like just cream or just sugar in their coffee can have it their way and those who like it black can have it their way. Something for everyone.  Yay!  (Please exchange tea for coffee if that's your preference.  )

It's really interesting when you ask folks why they attempt Bonuses, there's soooo many different thoughts and reasons. Mine is that I am most comfortable with my dog working "away" from me. That comes from my herding background most likely, maybe, I dunno.  It has nothing to do with being "bored" or having an extra "challenge". It's just where I'm comfortable.  (I have been known to say that I am allergic to running! hahaha!) I have the highest regard for the folks who can be where they need to be to help their dogs make great turns, it's kind of an art form to me and I applaud how they handle. I also applaud the folks who do some close and some distance work - that takes thought and lots of training effort.

Once again - thank you NADAC for providing the "flavor" of agility that fits me and my dogs and continues to provide all kinds of flavors that fit others.

-Kyle

[LFuller]

I was taken by the following comment in a recent post by Kyle:  "Once again - thank you NADAC for providing the "flavor" of agility that fits me and my dogs and continues to provide all kinds of flavors that fit others." I don't know if I have ever heard a better description of NADAC.  It definitely is the variety that NADAC offers that keeps me enthusiastic and interested in the sport.

[AndreaEntin]

Hi Everyone

Time for my 2 cents on the subject.  I hope this comes out as encouraging to everyone.  My journey in the bonus program is most likely different from everyone else. 

As a few people might know, but most of you won't know I started my bonus journey in Florida.  I am actually "the" bonus handler for this state.  In the past 8 years I can count on two hands the people who have tried for a bonus in this area, including local and snowbirds.  People just don't do big distance out here, except for the crazy one.....Me! 

My journey with bonus attempts was two fold, I loved the challenge of it for one.  Second I found being an overactive teenager has affected me greatly in my 40's.  My very first taste of big distance was in Calgary I think.  I remember having to send my dog Rebel on a large circle of jumps probably 50 ft in diameter.  I did not get the farthest jump, but boy was it freaking fun.  And I knew this was something I would keep trying. 

Keep in mind, there really were no trainers of NADAC in Fl in 2004 and today there still are not.  Essentially everything I have learned about distance I have figured out on my own thru trial and error, and a handful of clinics (when I could convince Sharon to come out and twice with Amanda). With Bang I got the bug, and it took me several years to learn that less is more.  There were weekend I would go out and to 3 to 6 bonuses in a two day trial.  Now If I try 3 over a three day trial it is a lot, I usually do one or two.  With every unsuccessful bonus attempt, I learn the skills I need to become a more complete bonus handler.  I file everything in my head at a trial and go home and train it, if I am missing a skill I add it on.  If I don't know how to train it I figure it out or find someone that is a good resource for information. 

Just because you don't have a training peeps, doesn't mean it cannot be done.  I am proof of that.  Make sure people are taking videos of your runs and handling that you can analyze.  Watch video of other people doing bonus runs and ask yourself why or why not did those runs work or not work?  And don't be in a hurry.  I agree that it would be great to have some kind of bonus in open, but there are lots of people that will ask to much of their dogs before they are ready and that is probably why the bonuses are only available in elite.  If you want a challenge drop you imaginary line on the course and work from there. Take your chances line and add 10 or 20 feet to it, drop a line in your head for jumpers and work with that.  It will come! And it will be great. 

Andrea and Linkin

[Sandy Langan]

Well said Andrea . You were so much fun to watch at champs in Ohio last year. Very inspiring! I’m getting close to trying them myself. Sandy

[cherhart]

So, I am a distance challenge person who has a goal of becoming a bonus person someday with my new dog. I guess my  take away from this thread is that it would be good to have a Bonus/DC Thread that contains some information and encourages new people to try. This may not be possible or it may be too time consuming but...

1) It sounds like many people would like to run bonuses but lack access to training. I like the idea of posting needed skills and how to train them with pertinent articles - that is very exciting.
2) I also miss watching videos of people who attempt and make bonuses. I know this helped inspire me because when you see what is possible you just have to try it. It also keeps you in touch with other people trying the same thing that you are trying and builds the feeling of camaraderie.
3) I would also like to have someone re-post what are the criteria for a  bonus and distance challenge. This was posted somewhere (and may still be on the website somewhere) but it helps to know why one course has a bonus and another course does not. For instance, I think a bonus course has to have the dog coming at you and turn away, a discrimination , etc.  Unfortunately, I have forgotten these rules and would like to see them again, are they different for different classes?

I too love all the options that NADAC offers and I certainly hope that the bonus/dc program continues to grow.

Cheryl

[Janice_Shavor]

I flat out love the idea of a distance challenge / bonus thread.  Especially if folks post links to video of attempts, successful or not.  Sometimes you can learn a lot from not quite successful!!  And especially if there are comments from the handler about specific sequences on course.

My current strategy is simply to work for a bit more distance with all dogs.  Figuring out how much more is a challenge since we have a lot of rainy weather and no place indoors to work.

[Amanda Nelson]

I flat out love the idea of a distance challenge / bonus thread.  Especially if folks post links to video of attempts, successful or not.  Sometimes you can learn a lot from not quite successful!!  And especially if there are comments from the handler about specific sequences on course.

My current strategy is simply to work for a bit more distance with all dogs.  Figuring out how much more is a challenge since we have a lot of rainy weather and no place indoors to work.

I too think this is a fantastic idea and I'm currently working on getting one added!!! :-D

Amanda


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Amanda Nelson]

I wanted to make a note that the NADAC Training Group does discuss distance/bonus line training (I just uploaded a video review of a bonus/distance course with my handling analysis) and members of the group can submit videos, ask unlimited questions and there is tons of training info on there! This link has more info: https://nadacshop.com/collections/frontpage/products/nadac-training-group

I will also be adding a Distance Training section here on the forum with training ideas, courses, and video analysis. Chris and I are meeting this week and we will get the details set up then! :-D

Thanks!
Amanda

[Janice_Shavor]

What fun!

[Marcy Matties]

Not late to reading this thread, just been away from my laptop for awhile and my skills at replying are not great on my phone.

When I first started reading the posts I agreed that alot of the DCs that I had seen appeared more challenging than what I recollect seeing in Starter Stakes at Champs (though recollections are always iffy).  And Amanda wrote that she was working hard on making bigger and closer DCs.  And I believe her.  My gut feeling was that a lot of these people (including myself) just hadn’t seen those “bigger, closer” distance challenge lines YET.  With YET being the operative word.  Every course set every week is not a brand new “created this hour” set.  They get shared around different zones over different weeks. 

So anytime Person A starts sharing about what they have seen or not seen, and Person B says – don’t know what you’re talking about – that’s not what I’ve seen …  well it’s highly likely that they are BOTH right.   Has a lot to do with what zone(s) you trial in, how often you trial, how long it’s been since your last trial, etc.  Since it appears that Amanda has been working on this recently, it is highly likely that there might be trials that haven’t seen the “bigger/closer” lines …  YET. 

When I first started reading this last week I was in that camp.  I hadn’t seen any bigger/closer boxes.  And then lo and behold at a 3-day trial this weekend I saw them on all 6 regular courses that were set. 

All of them were no more than 45 feet at the furthest.  Definitly some tricky things to handle in between “here” and “there,” but that’s true in Chances as well.  And the Chances line was 35 feet at one point, though sending to a tunnel not that tricky … lol   

Were there places that I thought – hmmm  we might could do that, and might not?   Yes.  But they were all within the realm of possibility.  And that’s all I want.  Something that is somewhat possible.  Even knowing that we wouldn’t get it in flow at this point in time, it sure makes it fun to try it knowing that if I kept working on it, someday we might get it.  And that turned out to be the case.  Those areas that I knew would be tricky for us, were tricky for us.  Those areas I thought we could do smoothly, we did smoothly.  But the fun of attempting those tricky parts and getting some of it (even though without flow) were so much fun.  Makes you want to keep trying to push that boundary just a little bit more each time.

So if you haven’t seen any “new” (sorry Amanda) distance challenges yet, keep your eyes open.  You probably will soon.

[Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso]

I am disappointed in this thread.  I have been racking my brain as to why anyone would think the current DCs need to be easier…. Especially the ladies that have commented!  These are ladies that know how to train distance and have and have been very successful!!  Huge respect for them and their ability to work distance!  Kyle I get that you want to qualify your young dog… I want to qualify both my pups but they seriously may not be ready for it! 

I also think maybe you all forget how flippin hard bonus opportunities used to be and how far and few between we got to see them!  Remember “stay behind first and last”…. How many times have you heard that during your distance career?  I would say at least 75% of Saiges bonuses were just that.  We trial mostly on 80x120 so I was working 80 to 100 feet from her every single time!  In her early years we might have seen a 15 pointer that was usually around the 2nd and 2nd to last obstacle…. Not a ton easier and we still had several folks step up to this challenge, learn how to train for it and just did it!  So when Amanda is giving us the opportunity to get these young dogs going and working and only have to work 40 feet away… holy cow I feel blessed!  And the amount of bonuses we are seeing is huge! 

Also another thought.  Not sure if any of you have ever tried to design courses or look at a course ON paper and try to figure out a good place to put bonus opportunities.  Think about how many courses ON screen Amanda has to look at and come up with a fair box!  Sometimes you design something and then you set it and it is great… other times you go oh Lord that sucks.  Same with these lines and boxes.  It is sooo different looking at something on screen/paper vs setting it up.

Janice here is what I think you need before ever trying any kind of distance…. Even Chances. 
1.   Independent weaves (going away, coming at you, side to side etc.)
2.   Independent contacts (going away, coming at you)  Also need them to be able to continue on and not turn towards you.
3.   A startline (because you need impulse control and a teammate)
4.     The ability to bring your dog to you and send them away (at a distance)
5.     Independent barrel performance
6.   And most importantly a thinking, problem solving, confident dog.
 
Distance is NOT for every person or every dog.  I truly think it is for a small majority of those that are trialing.  It is taking what you train to another level.  If everyone could do it then even at the current DC lines we would see many more.  I would hate to see these lines become easier and give people false hope that their dog enjoys distance.  My first dog Paisley actually has several 15 point bonuses to her name… is she a distance dog?  Absolutely NOT!!!  If I would have asked her to continually work at those distances I would have fried her and she would have come to hate the game.  I really don’t want to see people push dogs that don’t want to do it just because the line looks easy enough to do.

Thanks for listening….

Jeannie

I agree with most of what you say, but I adamantly disagree about a start line stay.  I HAVE a start line stay with my one dog, but she HATES it.  Not because of impulse control but because she doesn't like it.  She is also my bigger distance dog.  I don't do bonuses just because she actually shuts down with a start line stay.  Why do it if it isn't fun for her?  Not to mention that if I do it, she simply trots around the course....  Yes, MAYBE I can "train" it, BUT the reality is, she HAS it, she doesn't LIKE it......  And she is almost 11 years old, I am NOT going to change that.  I did a stay with her for YEARS because I was told I absolutely NEEDED it.  I almost retired her because she wasn't having fun and realized a good majority of it was because I was forcing a stay at the line.  I now do a sling shot start and we have a blast and she is still running and loving agility again.

My one and only bonus attempt was a few years ago.  I was able to slingshot my girl to the start line from the box.  We didn't get it, but it was fun to try.  Not every dog requires a stay at the start line. Many dogs are connected and have impulse control without it.     I would love to do more bonus runs with her, but I won't do one that requires a stay at the start line.

[Jeannie Biggers]

I am disappointed in this thread.  I have been racking my brain as to why anyone would think the current DCs need to be easier…. Especially the ladies that have commented!  These are ladies that know how to train distance and have and have been very successful!!  Huge respect for them and their ability to work distance!  Kyle I get that you want to qualify your young dog… I want to qualify both my pups but they seriously may not be ready for it! 

I also think maybe you all forget how flippin hard bonus opportunities used to be and how far and few between we got to see them!  Remember “stay behind first and last”…. How many times have you heard that during your distance career?  I would say at least 75% of Saiges bonuses were just that.  We trial mostly on 80x120 so I was working 80 to 100 feet from her every single time!  In her early years we might have seen a 15 pointer that was usually around the 2nd and 2nd to last obstacle…. Not a ton easier and we still had several folks step up to this challenge, learn how to train for it and just did it!  So when Amanda is giving us the opportunity to get these young dogs going and working and only have to work 40 feet away… holy cow I feel blessed!  And the amount of bonuses we are seeing is huge! 

Also another thought.  Not sure if any of you have ever tried to design courses or look at a course ON paper and try to figure out a good place to put bonus opportunities.  Think about how many courses ON screen Amanda has to look at and come up with a fair box!  Sometimes you design something and then you set it and it is great… other times you go oh Lord that sucks.  Same with these lines and boxes.  It is sooo different looking at something on screen/paper vs setting it up.

Janice here is what I think you need before ever trying any kind of distance…. Even Chances. 
1.   Independent weaves (going away, coming at you, side to side etc.)
2.   Independent contacts (going away, coming at you)  Also need them to be able to continue on and not turn towards you.
3.   A startline (because you need impulse control and a teammate)
4.     The ability to bring your dog to you and send them away (at a distance)
5.     Independent barrel performance
6.   And most importantly a thinking, problem solving, confident dog.
 
Distance is NOT for every person or every dog.  I truly think it is for a small majority of those that are trialing.  It is taking what you train to another level.  If everyone could do it then even at the current DC lines we would see many more.  I would hate to see these lines become easier and give people false hope that their dog enjoys distance.  My first dog Paisley actually has several 15 point bonuses to her name… is she a distance dog?  Absolutely NOT!!!  If I would have asked her to continually work at those distances I would have fried her and she would have come to hate the game.  I really don’t want to see people push dogs that don’t want to do it just because the line looks easy enough to do.

Thanks for listening….

Jeannie

I agree with most of what you say, but I adamantly disagree about a start line stay.  I HAVE a start line stay with my one dog, but she HATES it.  Not because of impulse control but because she doesn't like it.  She is also my bigger distance dog.  I don't do bonuses just because she actually shuts down with a start line stay.  Why do it if it isn't fun for her?  Not to mention that if I do it, she simply trots around the course....  Yes, MAYBE I can "train" it, BUT the reality is, she HAS it, she doesn't LIKE it......  And she is almost 11 years old, I am NOT going to change that.  I did a stay with her for YEARS because I was told I absolutely NEEDED it.  I almost retired her because she wasn't having fun and realized a good majority of it was because I was forcing a stay at the line.  I now do a sling shot start and we have a blast and she is still running and loving agility again.

My one and only bonus attempt was a few years ago.  I was able to slingshot my girl to the start line from the box.  We didn't get it, but it was fun to try.  Not every dog requires a stay at the start line. Many dogs are connected and have impulse control without it.     I would love to do more bonus runs with her, but I won't do one that requires a stay at the start line.

I agree, bonuses are not for every dog.  I guess I should have added to the startline needed is also because you need to get into a box