Tunnels/tunnel bags

[Laura Anne Welch]

A friend posted this from Clip and Go Agility.  I have two quesions-the bags that I see where we trial, in the SE, vary wildly in shape and form.  The bags in the last section of Clip and Go Agility's post are very wide, very stable and hug the bottom of the tunnel without seeming to poke into the tunnel.  Also, is the angle of the tunnel entry affecting the dog's performance in the entrance of the tunnel?  I see a lot of different ways of dogs going in and out of tunnels and wonder what is the best, most efficient, yet safest way?  Any thoughts or suggestions?
https://www.facebook.com/ClipAndGoAgility/?hc_ref=ARQ6kdy5t8rDgpgp9NpVRB-VW8lTQttUx9bI8O5y3tx_-FyQaiB0tPiLJr8SqyFLLGk&fref=nf

[Amy McGovern]

That's fascinating!  My youngest dog fell this weekend coming out of a straight tunnel.  It was a 15' tunnel with bags on each end.  She's fine but I couldn't figure out why she fell (she face planted as she came out of the tunnel!).  It was chances and the tunnel was off course so she was trying to turn to me and come back but the fall was surprising.  Interesting!!

[KarissaKS]

NADAC only allows two sets on each end.

Personally I *love* the way they bag the tunnels in Europe, where essentially the entire tunnel is bagged. It's secure. It doesn't move. The dogs know what to expect every time. I feel it's safer for our dogs.

I know there are people who will chime in and say that our dogs aren't supposed to bank tunnels. I've never understood that. Some dogs do. If the tunnels are bagged properly what does it matter? What's dangerous is a dog who is used to a properly/fully bagged tunnel and then runs through one with minimal bags. That's what causes injuries and falls.

This was an interesting video to watch, thanks for sharing. There is no denying that fewer bags results in the tunnel moving out from under the dog's feet (and he was barely banking).

[aprweber]

Why did they change the type of tunnel bag between takes?  I find that suspicious.  You shouldn't change more than one variable. Also, they sell tunnel bags.

April

[Marj Vincent]

Can you imagine how many tunnel bags a tunnelers course would require if we had to cover the entire tunnel?  For example, let's say a single tunnel uses a minimum of 7 sets x 9 tunnels = 63 sets or 124 individual bags would be needed for tunnelers. Many clubs use water to fill their bags....so filling 124 bags at each trial and then emptying them is very labor intense and time consuming. Or imagine if a club used sand with an average weight of 25lbs per bag or 3150 lbs of sand (1.15 tons)....can't imagine adding that weight to a club's trailer. (Not every trial site can store equipment). Or where do you put 125 tunnels bags inside a trailer? Plus as a course builder and tunnel bag mover, I surely don't want to haul 63 sets of tunnels on and off a course! I am sure the volunteer course builders would go hide.

Personally I would rather the tunnel move a bit when the dog runs through it.  Even putting bags in the middle is unsafe in my opinion (which is why it is not allowed in NADAC) because dogs can hit the middle bag and blow out a wrist because it is hard, where as the rest of the tunnel gives and they aren't expecting it. Seen it and cringed when the dog hit it, screamed and came out limping at a USDAA show.

[KarissaKS]

I've been to plenty of trials where there aren't even enough bags available to double bag all of the tunnels. Tunnels vary in weight/quality themselves, and some of the flimsier tunnels make me cringe even double bagged.  Tunnel bags aren't created equally, either, unless someone is weighing each one with a scale as they fill them. Double bagging filled at 25 pounds per bag on each end of the tunnel is going to do a lot better job of 15 pounds double bagged, but people just use what's available.

I agree that a random bag thrown in the center of the tunnel is asking for trouble, but bagging evenly around the curve is safe. My dog comes out of a 20' c-shaped tunnel faster when I put 8 sets of bags on it versus 4 and I also don't have to reset anything because that holds it in place.

It's already next to impossible to get course builders for Tunnelers. Everyone wants to run it, nobody wants to build it. There should be a requirement that every person running the class needs to haul a pair of tunnel bags or a tunnel....

[dogrsqr]

I agree Marge.  The energy has to be absorbed and I'd rather have it move the tunnel than get absorbed by my dog.  If we need a wall of tunnel bags that's even more to drag out onto the course. 

Gina

[Becky Woodruff]

I agree with Marj & Gina.  I'd much prefer the tunnel move than be held solid, especially on the bends.  If a dog hits the tunnel hard enough to move it, I want it to give.
Same idea as NADAC not allowing the weave poles to be staked.  I'd sure prefer they move if a dog were to hit them too hard.
And, I'm not even thinking about the added weight, work, expense for clubs if tunnels were required to be bagged the entire length....
Becky

[Shirlene Clark]

I agree too Marj

[Edraith]

I don't understand why people want a solid sandbank tunnel.That is a different obstacle.
If you want a solid half-pipe to bank, design and build a solid half-pipe. Coat it with an appropriate surface for grip so their feet don't slide out when the bank. But this is a *unique and new obstacle*

Otherwise, let a tunnel be a tunnel.

You don't campaign for longer contact zones when your dog flies off the top, you train a proper contact so your dog is safe.
Similarly, you don't campaign to make a solid pipe of a tunnel when your dog can't run it in a safe manner.

Not every dog is a fast BC type. Taller than 24" dogs have to learn how to duck and run. Little dogs need to learn to feel safe in this crazy envelope tube. Fast dogs need to learn how to go fast *safely*.  Just because people ignore actually training tunnels because their dog just runs through them, does not mean they dont need trained on safe obstacle performance just like anything else.

When I tried an "actual in person agility class", the instructor had us doing full height teeter day one of first class ever, no bang game even. Most dogs spooked, mine I have done lots of work body awareness, balance, and moving things under her feet, as well as she has no noise sensitivities, so she did it fine. That doesn't mean she knows how to do a teeter safely just because she did it correctly immediately. Same with tunnels, just because a fast dog runs through it first try no issues, does not mean they know how to safely perform a tunnel.

[Sharon Nelson]

The energy has to be absorbed and I'd rather have it move the tunnel than get absorbed by my dog.  If we need a wall of tunnel bags that's even more to drag out onto the course. 

Gina

That is it exactly!  When there is concussion, something has to absorb that energy created.  Better it be the tunnel than the dog.  And there are very useful methods of training a dog to run on the BOTTOM of the tunnel and not bank the sides.  No falling, slipping or injuries.  As people train them to bank the tunnels, thinking it creates a faster run, there will be injuries during falls.

JMHO

Sharon

[Richard Wolfe]

I agree Marge.  The energy has to be absorbed and I'd rather have it move the tunnel than get absorbed by my dog.  If we need a wall of tunnel bags that's even more to drag out onto the course. 

Gina

Definite "LIKE" to these statements.

[knittingdog]

Just curious - does NADAC specify a "standard weight" for tunnel bags?

Robin

[Shirlene Clark]

Just curious - does NADAC specify a "standard weight" for tunnel bags?

Robin

Most of the bag manufacturers specify a weight for their bags the click for agility ones state 30 pounds per bag
salty dog ones say 28 pounds

[Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso]

Why did they change the type of tunnel bag between takes?  I find that suspicious.  You shouldn't change more than one variable. Also, they sell tunnel bags.

April

I agree.  Their comment to that question was they were trying to show the minimal set up and that the difference wouldn't have been that great.  I believe they are trying hard to sell tunnel bags so I don't find this all that good of a study.