Training the start line:

[TeamKelpie]

I am a little confused on "Training the start line".  My dog holds his start line 99% of the time, but occasionally he breaks it as he did once at our last trial.  he went through the 2nd obstacle before I was able to get his attention and get him back to the start line which I reset him and was promptly told that was against the rules because he completed the 2nd obstacle.  My question is why can't the start line be trained just like any other obstacle, i.e. the contacts, a sequence or the weave poles which don't count as an "E".  I want my dog to understand that is not acceptable, so the choice one has is to let him break the start line and continue to run (Which I see a lot of handlers do) and thus get rewarded for doing so, or to just take them off the course which doesn't teach them much at all.  I've been told that time is one of the factors, but to train one thing will take time no matter what that training is.  I feel NADAC needs to be consistent in the "Training in the ring" rule.
Thanks, Pete

[Chris Nelson]

Time is the main factor.   I can guarantee if you walk out past the second obstacle,  by the time you get your dog back to the start line and trained the clock will be at around 25 seconds if not more.   And you still haven’t even run the course yet.

We are looking into adjusting our training rules but that change wouldn’t happen until 2018 most likely.

Time is the main factor though


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[BeckyAH]

Unless I don't understand the rules, you are often eliminated for training in the ring.    (Ask me how many eliminations I got for sticking my young dog back on a contact she blew in a trial - LOL).

" If the judge at any time feels that the handler is not trying to successfully complete a
course, but is working an obstacle or type of obstacle, for schooling a specific performance
pattern on that obstacle (or type of obstacle), then the judge may eliminate that run for scoring
purposes"


It is literally in the handbook under "Non-obstacle eliminations".

[dogrsqr]

For some dogs leaving the ring when they break the start line is teaching them more than  resetting them does.  My dog quickly learned no stay no play by leaving rather than resetting.

Gina

[RobertStewart]

My "primary" competitive dogs will on rare occasion, break his start line. So I'm listening for the beep of the timer starting always. I choose to not correct him, except in practice. But of note, it is very rare. So, it's not an issue.

My younger girl if i do a lead out in practice we're good to go, if i lead out at a trail she simply will walk, literally walk through a course. So, she's a "drop-n-run kindofagirl" It always amuses me how different each dog i've run have been.

[Maureen deHaan]

For some dogs leaving the ring when they break the start line is teaching them more than  resetting them does.  My dog quickly learned no stay no play by leaving rather than resetting.

Gina

I would much rather correct my dog and then praise her and be happy that she is being correct than leave the ring in disgust  -  I've learned over the years that pulling my dog for a breakdown in my training & handling is not fun  for my dogs and me & damages our working relationship - learned that the hard way and took a long time to get that relationship repaired - I would rather run a happy NQ run than punish my dog (and therefore me)

[dogrsqr]

I've never left the ring in disgust. She never got any harsh words or nagging; we simply walked back to the crate completely neutral.  You don't have to be negative for the dog to figure it out. 

I've seen many dogs over the years build a behavior chain of I break, my person comes back, we sit again and this time I stay and we go.

Gina

[dogrsqr]

And it very much depends on the dog and the reason they are breaking. Hard dog/soft dog, self motivated/ needs motivation, has impulse control/has a hard time with impulse control.

Gina

[Richard Wolfe]

I've never left the ring in disgust. She never got any harsh words or nagging; we simply walked back to the crate completely neutral.  You don't have to be negative for the dog to figure it out. 

I've seen many dogs over the years build a behavior chain of I break, my person comes back, we sit again and this time I stay and we go.

Gina

Agreed, Gina!!!!!!  For a long time my Rumor broke every start-line. I did the hand-feeding program and she had to wait before being released to her food every feeding and lots of other games and things and she just drove both her and I crazy because I would try to lead out and after I took one step she would be 3 or 4 obstacles on course barking because she wasn't getting any direction.
But since she would rather run than eat a raw steak, the final break was not letting her burn the adrenaline.  Break the line, I calmly tell you no, we collar up and quietly walk to the crate.  No judgment, no scolding, just go crate.  Sure didn't take long for her to realize, no obey=no play.  Now we do 20 runs a weekend, give or take, and she sometimes breaks one, often none.  And on that occasion, we make it a game to go back, sit, and go.
And I used to face her and walk backwards saying stay-stay-stay.  Now it's become stay, lead out, good girl, go!!!!!  No stress!!!!

[Rosemary]

I have to agree with Gina and Richard.  I have a dog that wants to run more than he wants to breath!  I finally bit the bullet and took him out of the ring for breaking his start.  He began to break and I was able to get him to stop.  Then he completely broke.  I thanked the judge, said "oh well" to my dog and we left the ring.  I IMMEDIATELY put him in a sit stay outside the ring, told him was wonderful and gave him treats.  You could almost see the lightbulb go on!  After lavish praise we went for a nice walk and continued the rest of the day happy as can be.  His stays are still a work in progress, but that finally made an impression.

[Maureen deHaan]

We all do what's right for our dogs and ourselves  and I certain wasn't implying that you, Gina, were negative - I don't even know you - but I see PLENTY of people who would not consider themselves negative acting poorly when they "march" their dogs our of the ring - saying negative things - putting dog in crate (sometimes rather harshly) & lots of other icky behavior - which is not what I aspire to be toward my dogs at any time while we play this GAME.

[dogrsqr]

Agreed Maureen I have seen the same which is why I wanted to say that it doesn't have to be a big nasty display.  Even as I did it very neutrally a few people thought it was mean to not let her play when she broke.  They were also not people who saw her run half a course with me still at the startline. 

She has returned to breaking after years o staying, but now it is a stress thing because we've been to too many trials where dogs are created close to the startline, people are standing directly behind her and leash runners are approaching her as I'm leading out.  I have not removed her for this and we are working on a new way to hopefully get her over the stress along with using people and dogs at class to help desensitize her. 

Gina

[BeckyAH]

And it very much depends on the dog and the reason they are breaking. Hard dog/soft dog, self motivated/ needs motivation, has impulse control/has a hard time with impulse control.

Gina

Yep.  I don't think I would EVER leave the ring with my small dog, for any reason.  She'd find it punishing, she'd shut down, there'd be an issue.

I absolutely would leave the ring with my young dog - and probably should more than I have.  I'm not mad. I'm not disgusted.  But if things like breaking her startline or missing contacts are happening I don't have a dog TO run - her stress level is too high.  There is no benefit in staying there, honestly.  She's not happy, she's not going to be happy running, she's just stressed out and needs to *get* out.

[Edraith]

I dont have much a startline, it is too demotivating.

So correct me if I am wrong.

But why wouldnt you train a start line within the current rules? Not by reseting your dog, but by reaising it is a new envioronment with new stimuli (and even different trials are gonna be different) so why wouldnt you pick a lead out that your dog can do and grow it as it generalises? Say in class you can lead out two obstacles. Do one in the trial, or a half of one, and grow it up from there to what you can do in class? Like...we do with any other behavior to generlise it? New environment = lower criteria  until it is generalised then build up criteria.

[BeckyAH]

I dont have much a startline, it is too demotivating.

So correct me if I am wrong.

But why wouldnt you train a start line within the current rules? Not by reseting your dog, but by reaising it is a new envioronment with new stimuli (and even different trials are gonna be different) so why wouldnt you pick a lead out that your dog can do and grow it as it generalises? Say in class you can lead out two obstacles. Do one in the trial, or a half of one, and grow it up from there to what you can do in class? Like...we do with any other behavior to generlise it? New environment = lower criteria  until it is generalised then build up criteria.

Probably, if the dog is holding 99% of the time, they have.

It's just a matter of figuring out what you're going to do that 1% of the time the dog breaks.  No training or dog is completely perfect; it happens.   Some dogs will shut down if you remove them, some dogs will get 'ring smart' and realize they CAN break at a trial, some dogs will fall in neither category or somewhere between the two.