Author Topic: Increasing Participation in NADAC  (Read 34489 times)

Marcy Matties

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2018, 05:31:19 AM »
Again not saying weíre changing anything,   But for the sake of discussion.


Letís say a new person wants to do agility.   They donít know anything about waiting and just want to get going.   They start in AKC at 15 months.
The odds are that person will never leave AKC, once someone starts with a certain venue itís very hard to sway them to something else.


So that dog will then be jumping 24.  Hard turns, etc etc.   and likely retiring before 10 years old.

Now take that same team,  dog turns 15 months and they can now do akc or nadac.

They play with both because at this point they arenít committed to anything.

If they stick with nadac the dog will be jumping lower for its entire career,  and the other benefits of nadac.

Assuming the average nadac career that dog would be competing until they are 12 and probably still sound.   Thatís pretty average for a lot of nadac dogs.


So did we really harm that dog by giving them an option to get started in a venue that will be better for them long term?   Especially if that option is limited to intro classes and lower jump heights.

Just food for thought.     Sometimes the long term is hard to see.


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I agree. Especially hard to get people to try another venue once they commit. If requirements were intro only and shorter jump heights and possibly even limiting runs per day, the handler could learn what to expect from their dog in a trial situation and improve their training. I did that with Dublin. Entered him FEO in ASCA just to see where his ring brain was. Only did it once, but it helped me plan my training until he turned 18 months. Probably couldnít do it, but even limiting them to 1 trial a month until 18 months would be good.
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danforth

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #46 on: April 22, 2018, 05:31:56 AM »
I never saw any BA classes offered in trials that we have attended.  However, as soon as intro began, those classes were available.

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Chris Nelson

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2018, 07:43:28 AM »
What has happened to the BA-1, BA-2 and BA-3 for the puppies prior to turning 18 months?
 

Some areas are still doing it.     But it's trailed off pretty severely.

Ideally that is what people would enter.    But it comes back to the same issue agility has in general right now, and that is that people don't really want to train everything properly, they just want to run.    and BA is heavily geared towards having a solid stay and basic obedience, which folks aren't interested in anymore.

I wish they were, it would make all of our lives a lot easier!   

BeckyAH

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #48 on: April 22, 2018, 12:28:27 PM »
I have a 12 month old pup, now.   He's been attending trials with me since he was about 4 months old, and he attended another one today.

 I will admit freely that had he been allowed to enter intro at a super low height (12 iffy, but even 8 or 4" yes and he's a 20+ inch tall dog), hoopers  (intro or novice) or tunnelers I would have entered him in those.  Is he *ready* for real competition?  No.   But I have limited opportunities for fun match type practices and getting him into the ring to play with him a little bit on a short course and have some fun in the ring as well as the environment IS appealing. 

He's got basic obedience,  a really good stay and recall,  and has had enough training to be safe on the equipment.  Would we have Qed?  Don't know, and wouldn't have cared either way.

That said, I recognize that not everyone is capable of keeping pressure off, or judging when to just get the heck out of the ring. 

I'm not complaining that I COULDN'T do that.  Just saying that if I could have, I would have.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 12:34:45 PM by BeckyAH »

Maureen deHaan

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #49 on: April 22, 2018, 01:46:47 PM »
I understand your point of view Chris and if (and only if) at 15 months they could do intro at a lower height - would that still get them to stay at NADAC given they can "get real titles" in akc / cpe / usdaa etc ?

 Not my words but thing I hear people say about intro - even some top NADAC people disparage it - do not see its value etc

and to put my perspective on it - I ran Zoe in Intro through ALL superiors in every event - so you know I love intro - but then again - I bleed purple and run my dogs at the lowest height they can regardless of what other people think

A phrase I use quite often to others is:   "Just because they can - doesn't mean they should"
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Chris Nelson

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #50 on: April 22, 2018, 01:50:52 PM »
I understand your point of view Chris and if (and only if) at 15 months they could do intro at a lower height - would that still get them to stay at NADAC given they can "get real titles" in akc / cpe / usdaa etc ?

 Not my words but thing I hear people say about intro - even some top NADAC people disparage it - do not see its value etc

and to put my perspective on it - I ran Zoe in Intro through ALL superiors in every event - so you know I love intro - but then again - I bleed purple and run my dogs at the lowest height they can regardless of what other people think

A phrase I use quite often to others is:   "Just because they can - doesn't mean they should"


I think a new person wouldnít have the same negative issues as someone whose been in the sport for years.   So I do think it would help.

Convincing someone who has been doing akc for 10 years to do nadac with their new dog is a losing battle.

Convincing someone who just got into agility three months ago,  much more likely.   They havenít gotten their minds set in stone yet


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Maureen deHaan

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #51 on: April 23, 2018, 02:40:35 AM »
Depends on where you are  - and who their trainers are  I guess
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dogrsqr

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #52 on: April 23, 2018, 05:23:53 AM »
I find that around here most people new to agility tend to trial where their instructors and classmates trial.  We've had people start out in NADAC because of Intro and because they can do some training in the ring, but that doesn't mean they stay with NADAC. We also have ASCA and UKI where training in the ring is to a much larger extent.

We have a wide variety of training philosophies around here varying from taking it really slow, learning impulse control, and not even start teaching weaves until a dog is at least 14 months old to push and get them ready to trial by the time they're a year old. 

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BeckyAH

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #53 on: April 23, 2018, 07:57:17 AM »
I am going to out myself as one of "Those" people, here.

I absolutely think it's important that dogs be safe on the equipment, stay in the ring, and work with their owners - this is my disclaimer.  Dogs leaving the ring and running wild on the trial grounds, dogs running wild period - bad stuff, scary stuff, do not want.   disclaimer part 2: I am a NADAC person, and exclusively so.  I won't let my dogs be a risk to themselves or other people, but:

I just want to run my dogs.

I am completely happy to throw an unprepared dog who knows just enough to stay with me and be safe into the ring, see where we are, and go back and do some more training.  I am completely happy to use management  (no pull harnesses, other commands or tricks) to keep my dogs close to me and never teach an extended loose leash walk.  I PLAY agility to PLAY with my dogs.  I like the Qs, I like succeeding, I like training challenges, but ultimately I am there to have a good time with my dogs and, yes, friends. 

Keeping the eye on dog safety is good,  and much of the training is safety related.   I think that's important to hold onto, of course, but I think maybe... not getting too pushy about the philosophy of taking it slow and only entering a dog who is entirely ready is probably a good idea, too.  (And I am thankful that intro and a multitude of classes with and without various obstacles exists for that reason - much easier to get a person to a trial if you tell them there are options without distance, without jumps, without contacts, without weaves, whatever.  And often, at least around here, if we can get them TO the trial and feeling good, we do usually keep them.)

Rosemary

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #54 on: April 23, 2018, 08:45:14 AM »
I'll just throw this out there.  Allowing dogs to enter intro at 15 months could possibly get new people in.  People who are new to agility look forward to testing their team's skills.  CPE, UKI and AKC allow dogs to start at 15 months.  That's three months more that those venues have to hook these folks.  Often, once a team is on a title course they want to see it through.  If we would allow them to enter NADAC at 15 months then we have those extra 3 months to help them appreciate how to keep their teams safe and happy for the long haul.

Foomin Z

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #55 on: April 23, 2018, 11:30:14 AM »
How about not allowing people to use prong collars on their dogs in the ring? I saw one recently at a NADAC trial, and when I told my non-NADAC friends, they were pretty disgusted about it, thought it was unsafe for the dog's health. I thought NADAC was about safety for the dog, and many people mention that in this thread.

dogrsqr

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #56 on: April 23, 2018, 11:38:42 AM »
To the best of my knowledge a prong collar isn't allowed at a NADAC trial unless something has changed that I'm not aware of. 

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dogrsqr

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #57 on: April 23, 2018, 12:01:28 PM »
Although looking at the rules it appears that has changed.  I guess I can use my citronella bark collar too.

Gina

Edraith

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #58 on: April 23, 2018, 12:36:56 PM »
So this is sorta outside-obersvation, people already yell at me for VT'ing, I dont pretend to be what I am not. I am much more in the "teaching pet people" world than the "agility" world, but I think as such, maybe my observations have some angles missed.

Once the basic 'sit stay come' in their own house and backyard is acheived, people split into two groups. Those who that is enough for, and  those who want something Fun to do with their dogs. A large portion of that population is the 6-12 month old Crazy Puppy owner who Needs a Job. They want to jump in now. Experience something now. Try something new now. And most are actually aware of body structure - believe it or not it is a growing thing in the not-competative world to be worried about growth plates and things! But I dont know if changing intro is the way to go.

You would also be amazed at how many people are looking for the AKC ACT and it is not being offered! I see it all the time in my Internet groups. yes, nadac intro is often brought up as an alternate, but for some reason ACT has a more friendly "try this out" thing (in my observation of poeple's reactions and responses).

My idea here is to make a NADAC version of ACT, but make it even more beginner and "puppy" friendly to bring in these people with pets, who realise they want more but are too overwhelmed by things. Don't even have jumps, use hoops, tunnels, maybe a lowered A-frame in a higher level. Advertise this through local trainers (not aglity facilities), pet sitters, vet offices, etc where you will circumvent the "venue biases". I mean, for ACT-2 you have to have all the obstacles. I think I would go more "nadac philosophy" and instead of adding more obstacles, maybe more like:
level 1: hoop and tunnels, 8-10 obstacles, no side changes needed
level 2: hoop and tunnels, 10-12 obstacles, 1 or 2 side changes needed
level 3: hoop and tunnels, 10-12 obstacles, 1 or 2 side changes, 5ft distance challenge over one obstacle
level 4: hoop and tunnels and low a-frame, 1 or 2 side changes, 5 ft distance challenge over 2-3 obstacles
level 5: same as 4 but one 5ft distance challenge and one 10ft distance challenge
two Q's needed at each level, once all 10 Q's acheived get your "nadac-act" title

I would have it open to 12 month old. SHOCK AND HORROR but look, you aren't jumping them at all, there are no jumps. No weaves. No real balance needed. If a 12mo dog can't go over a 2-3ft height Aframe which is a gentle slope, there is something severely wrong. Level one would give people fast enthusiam, it's basically a power run through a Ushaped course so unless their dog totally shuts down in trial envioronment it is achievable. It would also let everyone who currently runs nadac to not just bring their young dog along for trial exposure but actually put them in the ring for a fun run. it is different sitting in your crate and being in the middle of a wonderful smelly ring! why not expose that earlier in a safe fun way?

Anyway. Just my silly thoughts. People are gonna find ways to run their dogs, offer them something safe for even younguns, advertise to the more "pet who want to do things" group, and bam, get influx. If you made the program in a way where it required smaller arenas, could be something offered at dog faires, pet expos, and such too. Most those events do CGC testing, why not insert NADAC into them for agility?
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BeckyAH

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #59 on: April 23, 2018, 01:04:02 PM »
I would have it open to 12 month old. SHOCK AND HORROR but look, you aren't jumping them at all, there are no jumps. No weaves. No real balance needed. If a 12mo dog can't go over a 2-3ft height Aframe which is a gentle slope, there is something severely wrong. Level one would give people fast enthusiam, it's basically a power run through a Ushaped course so unless their dog totally shuts down in trial envioronment it is achievable. It would also let everyone who currently runs nadac to not just bring their young dog along for trial exposure but actually put them in the ring for a fun run. it is different sitting in your crate and being in the middle of a wonderful smelly ring! why not expose that earlier in a safe fun way?

Anyway. Just my silly thoughts. People are gonna find ways to run their dogs, offer them something safe for even younguns, advertise to the more "pet who want to do things" group, and bam, get influx. If you made the program in a way where it required smaller arenas, could be something offered at dog faires, pet expos, and such too. Most those events do CGC testing, why not insert NADAC into them for agility?

I actually really like this.  Reality is, to compete and be trial ready - with weaves and jumps at full height - by 18 months, a 12 month old dog SHOULD be seeing/have seen ground obstacles (hoops, tunnels, barrels), and certainly they've been on contact equipment at full height being built up slowly well prior to being old enough to be in the ring at a trial. 

All your 'silly suggestion' does is break it down so that the dog and handler are able to test their training in a trial environment at an age appropriate level as they continue to train their way toward intro and novice.

That said, I know that there are already issues of day length for things like Intro.   And BA didn't exactly take off.  So I'm not sure how practically feasible it is.