Author Topic: Increasing Participation in NADAC  (Read 35641 times)

BeckyAH

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #60 on: April 23, 2018, 01:05:46 PM »
To the best of my knowledge a prong collar isn't allowed at a NADAC trial unless something has changed that I'm not aware of. 

Ginak

See below.  Read the handbook for specific wording and updated my thoughts.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 01:11:11 PM by BeckyAH »

BeckyAH

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #61 on: April 23, 2018, 01:10:37 PM »
=
To the best of my knowledge a prong collar isn't allowed at a NADAC trial unless something has changed that I'm not aware of. 

Ginak

**EDIT**:
I looked it up in the handbook:

" NADAC allows any style of
collar except for electronic shock collars. Some individual clubs restrict the use of pinch collars,
so be sure to check the trial premium for any collar type restrictions. Handlers are to always use
any type of collar in a humane manner. Even a buckle collar can be used harshly, so always be
sure to behave in a humane and sportsmanlike manner with your dog."

Thinking about it, I'm not sure I consider this a problem.  AKC does prohibit visible prong collars at their events, but I don't think leaving it to clubs is bad.  Especially given how many of the ones I attend are in public parks.  Restricting the collars of non-entered dogs, in particular, sounds like a logistical nightmare, anyway.  Even entered but not running right now dogs - how would you even police that with everything else going on, and is it really fair to require the clubs find a way?

And certainly dogs aren't allowed any collar at ALL in the ring.

BeckyAH

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #62 on: April 23, 2018, 01:26:30 PM »
Okay, apparently even the 2015 version of the handbook said that there was confusion about what NADAC allowed and, as of that time, prongs and choke chains and other collars (except electronic ones) were allowed and it was up to individual clubs.

So, do with that what you will, but I apologize for not having done decent researched and having been part of that confusion.

Edraith

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #63 on: April 24, 2018, 07:14:19 AM »
I think for time, courses could easily be designed for minimal change between them. There are no hieght changes. Some of the later levels only the distance line would need moved. It should run faster than even hoopers in that regard. Wasnt BA that long complecated beginner agility  thing? Ivaguely remember trying to get through the handbook and being confused and overwhelmed. Maybe thats why it didnt take off. Also iirc it focused on ring obedience kinda like CGC agility style. Not that such is bad, but if you want to bring people in, the people looking for things to do with their dogs are people with highly energetic dogs and they want something to run their dogs at, so I think the program concept is vastly different as well. Im also (going back to time) talking about it should be designed to run at dog faires and pet expos (just like akc clubs do cgc testing). This puts it in public dedicated pet owner eye quickly, and would give the local club a good idea of how much of it to offer as you would have contacts from said expos.  Is it bad if a trial day goes longer because 20 new people came to play in this new program because they had fun at an expo? If nadac is gonna grow, trial days are gonna get longer...
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 07:19:08 AM by Edraith »
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BeckyAH

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #64 on: April 24, 2018, 07:36:38 AM »
I think for time, courses could easily be designed for minimal change between them. There are no hieght changes. Some of the later levels only the distance line would need moved. It should run faster than even hoopers in that regard. Wasnt BA that long complecated beginner agility  thing? Ivaguely remember trying to get through the handbook and being confused and overwhelmed. Maybe thats why it didnt take off. Also iirc it focused on ring obedience kinda like CGC agility style. Not that such is bad, but if you want to bring people in, the people looking for things to do with their dogs are people with highly energetic dogs and they want something to run their dogs at, so I think the program concept is vastly different as well. Im also (going back to time) talking about it should be designed to run at dog faires and pet expos (just like akc clubs do cgc testing). This puts it in public dedicated pet owner eye quickly, and would give the local club a good idea of how much of it to offer as you would have contacts from said expos.  Is it bad if a trial day goes longer because 20 new people came to play in this new program because they had fun at an expo? If nadac is gonna grow, trial days are gonna get longer...

There are limitations to how long trials can run for clubs - and they are hard limits.  It's not about not wanting to do the work, it's about the fact that many trials are held outdoors, in public places and without stadium lighting. We have the length of decent light to work with, and no more.   There are also locations where getting the judge back on the ONE flight out that day and they still have to travel an hour to the airport is also a restriction.

So, yeah.  The trial day really *can't* always be pushed further just to offer more.   More people is good.   We want more people.  But a lot of the smaller clubs cannot add hours to the trial, and that means that EVERYTHING can't be offered in a day, already.  It isn't a lack of desire or willingness, or a 'won't' or 'don't like it' it's a 'can't'.

At which point: Do you drop the things that new people would be interested in, and hope your regular competitors keep coming out, or do you drop some of the things the more established competitors are after in pursuit of titles and awards and hope new folks make up the difference?

Or do what most groups I know do and offer as much intro as they can, in spite of it not being intro in every class because that 'can't, daylight is gone and judge has to go home'.   And things like barrelers and hoopers don't get offered, already, because of those time restrictions.  NADAC has a LOT of classes.

I LIKE the idea of the program, a lot!  I just think something would have to give to enable it to be offered at a regular trial.   I don't know what that thing is, but something.   The fair/festival idea is one I think is super fun and could work well!
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 07:41:21 AM by BeckyAH »

Lin Battaglia

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #65 on: April 24, 2018, 10:18:18 AM »
Would you consider allowing 5 point Qs for a dropped bar in the very fast difficult JUMPERS CLASS and perhaps CHANCES class too ? Just more friendly. Chances requires big distance, it's a shame when you stay on course, do the distance and get it but dropped a bar. Then with Jumpers, when you stay on course, run fast with a beautiful run but you dropped one bar, it's a shame.
 

bhodges865

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #66 on: April 24, 2018, 10:44:19 AM »
How about not allowing people to use prong collars on their dogs in the ring? I saw one recently at a NADAC trial, and when I told my non-NADAC friends, they were pretty disgusted about it, thought it was unsafe for the dog's health. I thought NADAC was about safety for the dog, and many people mention that in this thread.

If used correctly and responsibly, a prong collar is VERY safe.  It's idiots who jerk their dog with one on that give it a bad name.  I sometimes use one when walking on the greenway, not because my overly friendly dog is going to attack, but because no matter what I've tried, she pulls (to the point of choking herself).  With a prong collar, she walks like an angel.
Team TX Heeler
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Jeff Newman

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #67 on: April 24, 2018, 11:19:05 AM »
So I have been lurking and thinking about this thread for some time and decided to reply and add to the discussion.
I've been a competitor in NADAC for many years. I have also been a strong supporter of the NADAC community in my area.
The participation issue in my area is saturation of the market between 3 venues. I can attend all 3 venues 2 or 3 weekends per month. Which then leads to a money issue and good choices about keeping my dog healthy. I love the ideals NADAC believes in. Consistent course design with dog safety in mind. I also enjoy AKC and USDAA agility. So with this in mind, I train for all 3 venues over the course of several years with my dogs. I am blessed to live in an area that can support training in these venues. They offer their own unique challenges. I believe NADAC to be in the big 3 discussion for venues of choice. How can NADAC attract agility competitors in a saturated market? There is no good answer. The point to all of this is we don't have all of the answers on how to increase participation. Maybe more questions need to be asked. Will it help to stay consistent in the product offered? Will it help to make some positive changes in the course design? What do the other venues offer that is attractive to the competitors? If NADAC wants to increase participation, maybe the answer lies in each individual area of the country. To me this question lies with NADAC as an organization. What does NADAC want to be? What is the NADAC vision moving forward? 
I personally do all of this to have a GREAT time with my dog. We should ALL run every run as if it were our last!!!
Jeff Newman
Phoenix Arizona

dogrsqr

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #68 on: April 24, 2018, 12:08:08 PM »
I agree Jeff .... NADAC needs to be what the owners want it to be. 

I do think it's important to note that while changing NADAC to be more like the other venues might attract some new exhibitors it might also cause the loss of some participation by the existing exhibitors.  For instance we travel a fair amount to attend NADAC trials, but if they become too much like the other venues we don't really have a reason to travel anymore since we have trials of every flavor that we can attend locally on any given weekend. That would likely hurt those clubs that don't have a large local exhibitor base to draw from.

Gina

RobertStewart

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #69 on: April 24, 2018, 12:09:02 PM »
Question.

Is it the process of earning the points folks donít like,  or running the lower level courses?

Itís fairly important because one of those options has a very simple solution with some new points coding I added recently.

So would you be okay with running a elite level course and those points get moved down to the lower levels?   Or is it the fact you need to spend all those trial dollars in order to reach the point where a championship is possible?

Personally my initial concern was that I would find the beginner courses boring or lacking. But while I moved through them quickly, it really wasn't a big deal and it gave me time to figure out how I needed to run the courses differently (since I know nothing as it is!). BUT for a venue i'm not really interested in, like with AKC, the idea of having to start in beginners again is enough to sway me from it due to the $$ issue. So I kind of think if it's the $$ then it's because you don't really want to commit to the venue. That my poor persons perspective at least. There is so much agility and dog sports out there now, gotta pick your poison/passion.



Chris

With one exception, I generally start my dogs in NADAC,  then add in the other venues.   I do think that letting people who have even Championships in other venues enter NADAC at the elite level , well they may be okay with jumpers and regular Chances would be not so much fun for them. I have seen this happen to a few of my club member, and then I taught them how to do NADAC distance work. It's rather significantly different than "distance" in say FAST or Gamblers as done by AKC, and USDAA respectively.  So it could present a significant challenge.  But it is an interesting idea
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RobertStewart

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #70 on: April 24, 2018, 12:30:39 PM »
Lorrie, I'm not sure I agree with your observation that dogs that have been trained in USDAA, AKC, and UKI have trouble with the NADAC obstacle spacing.  For example, at the UKI Championships and now in at least some USDAA trials, the obstacle spacing has been noticeably lengthened, and the dogs and handlers seem to really like it.   Hope that trend continues.  Maybe we could convince some of those folks to try NADAC.

What we see in this area are dogs that continuously turn back to their handler if the next obstacle isn't very close.  I've heard a number of people state that their dog isn't used to having so much room between obstacles.  Different areas of the country differ, of course, on how they train.

Lorrie

Billie

I've noticed the same thing esp in USDAA trials 

After 24 years in this sport, My dogs can drive out or do tight international level courses. I agree that dogs that have only done those kind of courses, might be at a distinct disadvantage when entering NADAC style courses.  It's just like dogs that have only done NADAC going into a USDAA Masters Challenge course might be equally confused.  I do enjoy some of the challenges mostly because they challenge me.

In AKC not that many people were doing FAST because it required "Distance" (which they'd gag on the word while saying it) Until they changed and added The Agility Grand Champion. I've actually been rather amused at the reaction to these handlers and then I get swamped with handling questions during FAST.


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Maureen deHaan

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #71 on: April 26, 2018, 02:56:22 AM »
How about not allowing people to use prong collars on their dogs in the ring? I saw one recently at a NADAC trial, and when I told my non-NADAC friends, they were pretty disgusted about it, thought it was unsafe for the dog's health. I thought NADAC was about safety for the dog, and many people mention that in this thread.

If used correctly and responsibly, a prong collar is VERY safe.  It's idiots who jerk their dog with one on that give it a bad name.  I sometimes use one when walking on the greenway, not because my overly friendly dog is going to attack, but because no matter what I've tried, she pulls (to the point of choking herself).  With a prong collar, she walks like an angel.


I personally do not allow prong collars at NADAC trials I host - for many reasons - mostly bc too many people do NOT know how to use them properly. It bothers me to see people using them on their well trained agility dogs at trials. It bothers me that other people see these people using them and think it's cool so they go and do the same - and do it poorly.

 I have huskies for goodness sake - they were bred to pull and they are strong pullers  - even my 30# husky can pull hard -and if I can get my huskies to walk nicely on a leash without a prong then I would think with a little effort and training - or a different method maybe - anyone could get their dog to and from the ring without a prong   

Additionally -and really most importantly - research shows that prong collars cause damage to the thyroid gland and therefore can lead to hypothyroidism in a dog.
Maureen, Kiva & Zoe
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Billie Rosen

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #72 on: April 26, 2018, 04:54:07 PM »
I don't think anyone reasonably would want NADAC to be like the other venues.  After all, if I want to do one of those venues (and I do), I do them.  I love NADAC because it is different and requires skills that the other venues don't, or at least don't emphasize.  The exhibitors in the U.S. are really lucky to have so much choice in agility organizations.  The answer to increasing participation in NADAC is not to make it more like one or more of the other venues, but not to drift too far away from the others.  I think making the courses more varied by having judges design their own courses and continuing to require Chances for a Championship title are among the things that will keep NADAC unique and vibrant, and not dumb it down.  Chris, you and Amanda are definitely on the right track, keep up the good work!!!!!
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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #73 on: April 27, 2018, 03:36:51 PM »
I was recently talking to some people at agility class this week and trying to encourage them to try Nadac. Someone asked if they let you close the gate so they wouldn't worry about their dog running out. I wasn't sure, so I contacted the trial secretary. She told me that yes they can close the gate but they would have to take an E for training. When I told the person they, understandably, chose not to enter. Is there a reason that people in at least Intro or Novice cannot close the gate without getting an E?  They might be brand new to agility or Nadac or have a brand new dog that they're not sure how he/she will behave at a trial. They're probably already nervous and shouldn't have to worry about their dog taking off and possibly running towards a road or woods or whatever. That would be a shame for someone to close the gate, their dog never even thinks about leaving, they have a beautiful run and then it doesn't count just because they were new and concerned about what their dog may do. That seems discouraging, especially to a newcomer. Would it really hurt to allow Intro and Novice to close the gate if they chose?
Thanks
Jill

BeckyAH

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #74 on: April 27, 2018, 04:08:00 PM »
  People stand at the gates to act as 'guards' for dogs who are flight risks ALL THE TIME.   It's an E if the dog leaves/has to be grabbed, of course, but if they don't go near the gate during the run - no harm, no foul.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 04:13:15 PM by BeckyAH »