Author Topic: Increasing Participation in NADAC  (Read 34497 times)

LyndaB

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2018, 04:38:16 PM »
I know CPE lets you start at level 1, 2, or 3. Teacup does fast tracking, where you only need 1 Q at the lower levels if you have higher titles elsewhere. And while I get the sentiment behind this, there is no real equivalent for the NADAC classes in other venues other than Standard and Jumpers, so you'd likely need to start at Novice in 6 of the classes anyway.

Chris Nelson

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2018, 04:41:23 PM »
Question.

Is it the process of earning the points folks donít like,  or running the lower level courses?

Itís fairly important because one of those options has a very simple solution with some new points coding I added recently.

So would you be okay with running a elite level course and those points get moved down to the lower levels?   Or is it the fact you need to spend all those trial dollars in order to reach the point where a championship is possible?


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mstomel

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2018, 05:52:46 PM »
Question.

Is it the process of earning the points folks donít like,  or running the lower level courses?

Itís fairly important because one of those options has a very simple solution with some new points coding I added recently.

So would you be okay with running a elite level course and those points get moved down to the lower levels?   Or is it the fact you need to spend all those trial dollars in order to reach the point where a championship is possible?

Personally my initial concern was that I would find the beginner courses boring or lacking. But while I moved through them quickly, it really wasn't a big deal and it gave me time to figure out how I needed to run the courses differently (since I know nothing as it is!). BUT for a venue i'm not really interested in, like with AKC, the idea of having to start in beginners again is enough to sway me from it due to the $$ issue. So I kind of think if it's the $$ then it's because you don't really want to commit to the venue. That my poor persons perspective at least. There is so much agility and dog sports out there now, gotta pick your poison/passion. 

KarissaKS

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2018, 06:22:24 PM »
Personally, I would not be okay with running Elite courses and having my points transferred down to Novice. If I still have to spend all that time and money getting points before it starts applying towards NATCH then I may as well run Novice and Open where the odds of Qing are going to be higher.

I understand the argument that skilled teams shouldn't take that long to get to Elite -- Thanks to side runs at Champs Jedi was in Elite Jumpers & Chances at his second NADAC trial, and after his third trial he's almost got his Open Versatility. But were there a fast track option I would have jumped on it. NADAC has a lot of classes, and I find it particularly drudging to have to go through Novice & Open when I'm running the same course as Elite in the games -- and I want my dogs off 6 weave poles as soon as possible.

I do realize that I'm not your average competitor. But an option similar to USDAA where you are only required to get your Standard title (3 Qs) plus 1 Q in each game to move up would be nice.
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agilityaddict2

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2018, 06:25:52 PM »
Not sure but I think itís the running of the lower level courses. Let them start where they are at in the other venues. That masters dog/handler from akc will soon figure out where they belong and adjust accordingly,since you can move down in nadac. Just my opinion, no idea if it would help. Pretty sure someone with a Mach dog isnít going to want to start in novice.

KellyDittmar

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2018, 05:09:40 AM »
Or is it the fact you need to spend all those trial dollars in order to reach the point where a championship is possible?

I think you hit the nail on the head here... If I have my CATCH or my MACH or some other labeled piece of PVC at my house, will I be excited by running novice NADAC? Or will I perceive it as being so simple to be beneath me?  With limited time, will I want to run 'boring novice' courses so I can eventually run in elite? Or will I be more likely to stay where I am or go somewhere that doesn't make me start at the bottom with the skills that have been proven already? And even if I can start in elite... If I need to move a min of 18 Qs down - assuming I have a 100% Q rate, that'll be about $200 in cash for those novice/open reg/jump/chances Qs... Another $200 for the versatility classes. A lot of money to "throw away" on move-downs.

There is a different question: If you allow people with outside experience to skip forward, how do you keep the perception of fairness for new folks who are excited to move up but haven't trialed/Qd enough to do it? More and more I talk to people who only want to run elite. They are frustrated at being in novice or open and feel their skills are good enough to be in elite - even when they aren't consistently Qing in the lower levels... Most often I hear it from people with faster dogs in TNG or tunnelers where the course is the same & when they are clean & under time, they would have Q'd in elite.

These folks are the opposite of the 'its about the journey" folks... They are the "peddle to the metal" folks. Neither group is right or wrong, but how they approach things will be significantly different.
Kelly Dittmar
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dogrsqr

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2018, 05:18:58 AM »
I think the other orgs that allow people to start at a level other than Novice have some rules attached.  UKI doesn't allow you to start at a higher level with only NADAC titles because they feel that you don't necessarily have the skills needed.  I feel that's fair.  So that begs the question do folks have the skills to start at Elite Chances?  Do they have the speed to make time in Elite? 

Gina

aprweber

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2018, 08:03:51 AM »
Years ago when I decided to move my dogs down to preferred in AKC, they made me start back in novice. Coupons for money off entries for being high in class took some of the sting out of the money spent.

AKC changed the rule after I had left the venue.

AKC has changed quite a bit since I left.  The chute is no longer there. The performance on the table has changed. The height of the AF was adjusted.  I've been gone for years, so my list may be lacking.  I did get to do FAST and time to beat. I didn't do the class that had a more international flavor.  When I started there were 2 classes: standard and JWW.  Now there are 5 plus Agility Course Test.

Has any venue remained unchanged?
April Weber

Edraith

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2018, 08:39:54 AM »
Jumping to Elite maybe makes sense if you have other such titles in other venues but only for jumpers and regular I think...as the other classes dont even have equivilants in other venues?

If it is a money thing I guess i get it too....$60+ assuming 100% q rate per game (3 novice 3 open before hitting elite).

Maybe there could be a test-trial to help these folk who feel they are either 1) too good a team to start out in lower classes or 2) coming in from other venues.
They can run one of each game in elite at their *first* NADAC trial with that dog. If they Q, they can stay in elite. If not, they have to go through the program as normal, and for the rest of that trial for that game they have to start out in novice like everyone else.
Everone will always find excuses of why they didn't q, but they can't say they didn't get a fair chance then. Kinda an "okay, so stop running your mouth show us your skills" thing. And that would make it a game-by-game basis, so say you have the regular and jumpers skills (which I would expect anyone coming from other venues would have) you can skip out, but if you cannot show those elite chances skills...well buddy for that game you get to start where everyone does because it needs work!
« Last Edit: March 30, 2018, 08:44:42 AM by Edraith »
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KarissaKS

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2018, 08:51:47 AM »
If people want to NQ in Elite then that is their business. Fast track systems do not require that experienced teams start out at the top level, they just make it an available option.

Using UKI as an example, I would venture to say that many teams running in Masters AKC classes (not Premier) do not have the skills to immediately succeed at Champion level UKI classes. They are so vastly different. BUT, UKI gives those people the option to start there if they wish -- and someone who has only ever ran AKC probably isn't going to have any experience with Snooker or Gamblers, but they get thrown right into the CH level for those classes as well. If they don't want to do that then they always have the option of not using the fast track and starting at Beginners like anyone else.

So sure, your average AKC competitor may not succeed at Elite Chances out of the gate -- but some might.
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dogrsqr

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2018, 10:38:52 AM »
UKI does not give NADAC only competitors the option to start at a higher level.  They allow dogs with titles in USDAA, CPE, and AKC to start at higher levels depending on what level they are at in those orgs.  Their rules also say that they must transfer in at those levels.

Gina

Foomin Z

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2018, 02:28:13 PM »
If you go by the hoopla created by the recent CPE levels/rule change, it is about the money and working towards the championship. So many complaints about "wasted Qs," with no one thinking about the fun time they spent with their dog.

The USDAA example of do the regular title plus one Q in each game to move up would be really tedious to the type of exhibitor that example would appeal to, because NADAC has so many classes... and a possibility of adding two more?? I think it would be frustrating for people experienced in other venues to have to slog through so many NADAC classes that will all seem so similar to each other.

 

Heidi Konesko

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2018, 08:19:08 AM »
Allowing proven teams to start at a higher or the highest level is an interesting idea.  If it would help bring people in the door, I think it should be explored.  My 2 cents.
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agilityaddict2

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2018, 07:02:46 PM »
If people want to NQ in Elite then that is their business. Fast track systems do not require that experienced teams start out at the top level, they just make it an available option.

Using UKI as an example, I would venture to say that many teams running in Masters AKC classes (not Premier) do not have the skills to immediately succeed at Champion level UKI classes. They are so vastly different. BUT, UKI gives those people the option to start there if they wish -- and someone who has only ever ran AKC probably isn't going to have any experience with Snooker or Gamblers, but they get thrown right into the CH level for those classes as well. If they don't want to do that then they always have the option of not using the fast track and starting at Beginners like anyone else.

So sure, your average AKC competitor may not succeed at Elite Chances out of the gate -- but some might.
[/quote  It is my understanding it is not an option for UKI. You MUST transfer in at the level you are competing in at AKC for example. They do not recognize NADAC levels.

Heidi Konesko

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Re: Increasing Participation in NADAC
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2018, 08:09:30 AM »
I think it's a matter of time and/or money for some people, how many weekends and dollars you are going to devote to a strange venue to check it out and work your way up to the full performance level, vs. spend the time and money where you are comfortable, and already in a system of earning points and titles.  I know I had a scenario where I could start at a higher level, (not THE highest level), with my already experienced and trial-savvy dog, and I was happy starting there.  We didn't clean up, and the courses were challenging for us, and it showed me what I would need to train if I wanted to continue entering that venue.  I decided not to because I liked my many NADAC trial options more.  If I had had to start at the lowest level I don't think I would have tried the other venue at all.
I think they had a rule that once you Q'ed at a certain level you could not go back down to a lower level.  I would not recommend that, as I don't see any reason for it and it would be difficult to police.
I don't know how you would enforce "showing proficiency in another venue".
I'm up to 4 cents now!
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