Author Topic: Proposed updates to Bonus Program  (Read 6981 times)

DougRicks

  • Judge
  • *****
  • Posts: 73
Re: Proposed updates to Bonus Program
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2018, 08:34:08 AM »
Perhaps more attention should be paid to the rules and criteria for bonus runs. There is a different set of rules and standards as far as getting out of flow, re-directing, stopping, etc that are not applicable in any other NADAC class - including the distance tests of chances. Somewhat like all of the headaches with judging the barrel performance with how close, in flow, markers or whiskers, etc. The simple solution was to get back to the basic NADAC philosophy and let the clock take care of poor execution. I am of the personal opinion that something that is either so subject to individual interpretation, so complicated, or so sublte that it cannot be judged on the spot has a problem with the rules and criteria.  Chances is judged all the time with no stress about these things, and in fact there is often extra cheering when someone manages to recover in the middle and restart a stalled dog to finish the course. Could that not also be considered a success at two or three times the distance in a bonus? Is there not a way to maintain the integrity of the challenges presented (directional, speed/collections, etc) and make it something that could be judged by any trained judge AND clear and understood by the exhibitors as well as handler?

As it is now, if a dog and handler attempt a bonus run very often nobody in the building really knows if it was a points earning success or not. The exhibitors, the handler, and the judge can all have an opinion but until it gets sent off for review it is like those "to be continued..." tv shows. That can really dampen the interest and opportunity to celebrate on the spot. Personal satisfaction is great, but if we want to promote this aspect of NADAC agility one of the greatest human motivators to join in and try something new is the chance for instant positive feedback,  and a little applause from others does not hurt.

Just another thought...
Doug Ricks

Doug Ricks

Linda W. Anderson

  • Trial Secretary
  • *****
  • Posts: 1164
Re: Proposed updates to Bonus Program
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2018, 12:13:35 PM »
Perhaps more attention should be paid to the rules and criteria for bonus runs. There is a different set of rules and standards as far as getting out of flow, re-directing, stopping, etc that are not applicable in any other NADAC class - including the distance tests of chances. Somewhat like all of the headaches with judging the barrel performance with how close, in flow, markers or whiskers, etc. The simple solution was to get back to the basic NADAC philosophy and let the clock take care of poor execution. I am of the personal opinion that something that is either so subject to individual interpretation, so complicated, or so sublte that it cannot be judged on the spot has a problem with the rules and criteria.  Chances is judged all the time with no stress about these things, and in fact there is often extra cheering when someone manages to recover in the middle and restart a stalled dog to finish the course. Could that not also be considered a success at two or three times the distance in a bonus? Is there not a way to maintain the integrity of the challenges presented (directional, speed/collections, etc) and make it something that could be judged by any trained judge AND clear and understood by the exhibitors as well as handler?

As it is now, if a dog and handler attempt a bonus run very often nobody in the building really knows if it was a points earning success or not. The exhibitors, the handler, and the judge can all have an opinion but until it gets sent off for review it is like those "to be continued..." tv shows. That can really dampen the interest and opportunity to celebrate on the spot. Personal satisfaction is great, but if we want to promote this aspect of NADAC agility one of the greatest human motivators to join in and try something new is the chance for instant positive feedback,  and a little applause from others does not hurt.

Just another thought...
Doug Ricks
This is an excellent post, Doug.  The biggest draw for me is the possibility of additional points and a chance to participate in the Stakes class at Champs.  I am not a fan of the whiskers since I have limited vision in one eye.  I want to know exactly where the lines are when I walk on the course.  I understand that having tape on the ground for the whole class could pose a difficulty for non-bonus people.  I was okay with bonus runs going first, but if you have multiple dogs trying bonuses, it can cause additional problems.  I hope all these "things" will be considered before major changes are announced.
Linda
Linda W. Anderson - Dogs have only one fault, their lives are too short!

Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility

  • Trial Secretary
  • *****
  • Posts: 355
    • In The Zone Agility
Re: Proposed updates to Bonus Program
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2018, 03:29:33 AM »
I wholeheartedly agree with  Doug :)

I am currently running  4 dogs in the bonus program (Yes I have even tried doing a few DC with Syn-my deaf girl)
I really like the recent changes -  I like running in my current running order, being able to try both bonusí etc.

However, I do believe there can be more positive changes to enhance the current program.

Here are my proposed changes-
1- In the spirit of the 4 paw rule, lets have a 2 foot rule.    At least one human foot needs to stay within the box.    With no clear demarcation line to delineate the box, it is extremely difficult as a handler to know definitively if you stayed in the invisible box or not when you are running the bonus.      In addition,  the angle of the camera matters.       So if  there was a 2 human foot rule for the box, this will help with this issue.     So my proposal is as long as one human foot appears to stay within the box, it is good!  Two human feet need to clearly step outside the box to negate the bonus.  I think this is a good solution!!!

2-All Bonus runs should be posted the the website.  I think this will add validity and consistently to the program.  IF all can see the bonus runs, people can see the courses, handling and judging of all the runs which adds to the current trend of transparency with NADAC.

3-Add a MODSQUAD  without a DRI requirement.    There are many awesome teams that cannot get a DRI over 100 in one or more of the classes preventing them from obtaining this award. IT already has levels of awards in relationship to DRIs so adding one without a DRI  requirement is not a big leap :)

Thank you for your consideration
lisa
Be Well & Happy
In The Zone Agility
www.inthezoneagility.com
Agility and Conditioning Seminars/Online Training Classes

Marj Vincent

  • Judge
  • *****
  • Posts: 562
  • GotDog? Trainer
    • GotDog? LLC
Re: Proposed updates to Bonus Program
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2018, 08:02:29 AM »
Lisa, IMO, since the S in MODSQUAD stands for SPEED, removing the SPEED requirement would not longer make it a MODSQUAD award.  Speed has always been a factor in the NADAC upper awards. Not all dogs are going to win these upper awards, that's why they are so special....for those special dogs that DO have everything required to win them.

I don't understand the need for your two foot rule. It has always been if you step on or over the line in Chances or the Bonus/DC lines, you didn't Q or get the extra points.  Seems pretty black and white to me, step on the line you fail the test.  It seems the issue is the demarcation of the line....not the rule itself. 
Marj Vincent
Scotty & Java
Ontario, OR

"The most beautiful things in life are not things. They're people, and places, and memories and pictures.They're feelings, moments, smiles and laughter."

Amanda Nelson

  • Fluid Motion Agility
  • Judge
  • *****
  • Posts: 499
  • Fluid Motion Agility-For the Athlete in Your Dog!
    • Fluid Motion Agility
Re: Proposed updates to Bonus Program
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2018, 08:30:45 AM »
I'm doing a quick reply off my phone and will write something longer once I get to my computer. :-)

In regards to lines being put down for the bonuses and distance challenges.  We tried in the very beginning to have all bonuses and DCs laid with tape, but we received overwhelming complaints from competitors not doing the bonus or DC about the lines being down. Even now, we still receive complaints about the whiskers......

In the old days there were no lines, you were just told what equipment to stay behind. :-D

Amanda


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Amanda Nelson
Online Classes and Private Lessons available!
--
For the Athlete in Your Dog!
www.fluidmotionagility.com

Chris Nelson

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1869
Re: Proposed updates to Bonus Program
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2018, 08:59:36 AM »
I believe having the 10 judges reviewing bonuses will take care of the line issues.

If 8 of them say you stepped over,  then you stepped over.

Introducing one foot over is just going to be the exact same issue as it is now,  except now the argument would become did they really have two feet over.   Itís the same problem with a different foot.

I would be more inclined to tighten up on the video requirements.   Saying videos must include dog and handler and must be taken from ringside,  not twenty feet away from the ringside.

Let the judges make the call on contacts so that video doesnít have to worry about that.   Video can only overturn a judges contact call if itís blatantly and obviously a miss.   In which case we wouldnít take away the Q,  just no extra points.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Linda W. Anderson

  • Trial Secretary
  • *****
  • Posts: 1164
Re: Proposed updates to Bonus Program
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2018, 09:29:17 AM »
"I would be more inclined to tighten up on the video requirements.   Saying videos must include dog and handler and must be taken from ringside,  not twenty feet away from the ringside."



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
[/quote]
Could the course map include a recommended "videographer" position?  I have always had the person who is videoing stand inside the ring, but not all positions/angles show everything from the perfect position.
Linda
Linda W. Anderson - Dogs have only one fault, their lives are too short!

Re: Proposed updates to Bonus Program
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2018, 12:51:23 PM »
"I would be more inclined to tighten up on the video requirements.   Saying videos must include dog and handler and must be taken from ringside,  not twenty feet away from the ringside."



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Could the course map include a recommended "videographer" position?  I have always had the person who is videoing stand inside the ring, but not all positions/angles show everything from the perfect position.
Linda
[/quote]

I don't do bonuses yet, and maybe never will, but I do tape them.  It is very difficult to get video of both the dog and the human in the same frame at times depending on where the box it.  You can't always be on the side of the ring that would have the best view because you would then be on the course or there is a wall there. 
Audri, Lily, Cee Cee and Toto, Calypso

Kyle

  • 2016 Online Seminar Group
  • *****
  • Posts: 296
Re: Proposed updates to Bonus Program
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2018, 05:38:11 PM »

With course maps being posted I have not been giving the two minutes before the course for bonus walk throughs

I do five minute walk throughs, and then clear the course and two minutes to first dog.   It was suggested to use that two minutes at the end for the bonus handlers and veteran handlers to continue looking at the course.

I believe that is a good solution,  and most bonus handlers would be happier having the end of their walkthrough with a clear view instead of the beginning anyway, that way the five minute walk through can be used for looking at the course closer up


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That would be great to allow Bonus and Veteran handlers the two minutes again, and having it at the end is fine. I know I'll appreciate it!  ;D Do you have an idea when it will be implemented?

Many thanks,
Kyle
Kyle
Leona Valley, CA

Kyle

  • 2016 Online Seminar Group
  • *****
  • Posts: 296
Re: Proposed updates to Bonus Program
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2018, 06:45:03 PM »
I think this is a pretty good idea and it might make it easier for people to try bonus lines or distance challenges if they have not attempted in the past.  I do have 2 thoughts though:

* Chris, you mentioned some additional training for judges - I think this would be critical as several judges do not regularly attempt bonus' and may not be completely familiar with the criteria, and

* I believe the video helps handlers differientiate between a clean bonus run and one that does not meet criteria.  With the video system, handlers watch the video and self-evaluate prior to submission.  I'm aware of several handlers who believed they just ran a clean bonus run and because of the video were able to gain a better perspective before submitting.  Because of the importance some people place on bonus runs, I'm just a little concerned without the video, we might be setting up a conflict between handlers who thought they deserved the bonus and judges who saw it differently.

Peter makes some really good points here. He's right that when we look back at a video we realize we weren't quite as "stellar"  ;) as we thought we were! But, then, occasionally, we look at it and realize that turn wasn't as wide as imagined (or whatever) and we send it in and get it approved! Yay! But, from what I'm kind of understanding, if awards and points are important to people, plus the opportunity to get into Starter Stakes, these folks would do a video no matter what, right?

Thanks,
Kyle
Kyle
Leona Valley, CA

Kyle

  • 2016 Online Seminar Group
  • *****
  • Posts: 296
Re: Proposed updates to Bonus Program
« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2018, 06:56:28 PM »

2) If you want the extra points for the run you would be required to send in a video in the same way you currently do.   And the same criteria would be applied in regards to path and flow.


After reading all the posts, I'm still a little fuzzy on understanding the criteria for the judged runs for no extra points. The "not for extra points" runs still get judged on path and flow by the judge, right? All the stuff we normally look for in a good Bonus run still applies, or am I lost?

(We need a good name for the "not for extra points" runs!  ;D)

Thanks,
Kyle
Kyle
Leona Valley, CA

Chris Nelson

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1869
Re: Proposed updates to Bonus Program
« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2018, 07:01:17 PM »
Judges would be allowed to approve bonuses on the weekend to get dogs into starter stakes,  and to give a little positivity.

Those bonuses would either carry no extra points,  or just 5. 

If they wanted more points then that they would need to send in a video.   And for the run to count towards silver or super stakes they would need to submit the video.


Keeping in mind,   This is all just talk right now.   So adjustments are possible


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

InfinityM45

  • *****
  • Posts: 11
Re: Bonus Program Basic Information
« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2018, 08:08:21 PM »
        I know that some people attempt bonuses at trials and seem to enjoy it.  Is there some document somewhere that describes how to participate in the bonus program?  What is the starter stakes?   It all seems sort of complicated when you do not know how the system works.  Norma

mstomel

  • *****
  • Posts: 41
Re: Proposed updates to Bonus Program
« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2018, 08:12:21 PM »
Judges would be allowed to approve bonuses on the weekend to get dogs into starter stakes,  and to give a little positivity.

Those bonuses would either carry no extra points,  or just 5. 

If they wanted more points then that they would need to send in a video.   And for the run to count towards silver or super stakes they would need to submit the video.


Keeping in mind,   This is all just talk right now.   So adjustments are possible


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think it's great. I've heard, a number of times, handlers say they would attempt the bonus but they don't have anyone to video tape their run. I have attempted a few distance challenges but I've never asked someone to video me so it was just for me. It would be awesome to be able to get the designation, I don't particularly care about the extra points personally but I do care about being able to challenge us and having someone other than myself be able to tell me if it was successful.

knittingdog

  • *****
  • Posts: 209
    • Cowtown Dog Sports
Re: Proposed updates to Bonus Program
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2018, 05:30:58 AM »
        I know that some people attempt bonuses at trials and seem to enjoy it.  Is there some document somewhere that describes how to participate in the bonus program?  What is the starter stakes?   It all seems sort of complicated when you do not know how the system works.  Norma

I've been wondering the same thing about documentation as I'm realizing I don't really know how the program currently in place works.  For example, I didn't know that a 20 point bonus run required a 100 dri.  I thought that the bonus box meant 20 points while the DC was 15.  Having all this written down somewhere would be great.

If the latest current rules are in the Handbook, then I apologize for not looking first.  (Doh!)

Robin