Author Topic: August 2018 and beyond Standard Course Times  (Read 4334 times)

Chris Nelson

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August 2018 and beyond Standard Course Times
« on: July 01, 2018, 12:15:16 AM »
Hello All,

Standard course time (SCT) for August and forward has been calculated.
If you want a brief explanation of how the numbers were derived you can watch a video here:




The files mentioned in the video are also attached to this post for your viewing pleasure :)
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 10:00:48 AM by Chris Nelson »

Maureen deHaan

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Re: August 2018 and beyond Standard Course Times
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2018, 04:03:12 AM »
Hi Chris - good info - just curious - looking at the runs for SCT file - how did you choose the sample? 
Maureen, Kiva & Zoe
Play~Bow
Kingston, NY

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Ed and Dino

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Re: August 2018 and beyond Standard Course Times
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2018, 06:34:14 AM »
Looking at data, I assume this is only based on Q data, because I don't think NADAC gets data from non Qs.
Data seems to be from outside and inside trial locations but seems like a rather small data set.

So how would the times ever increase (allow more time for Q) if the correction of times is always based on Qs?

Glad to see Belle is in data, she is not a fast Elite Tunneller dog, so far, so her 2 Qs help to keep times slower.

Pondering question, why is it dogs are faster in Barrellers than Hoopers, is it the variety of Obstacles in Barrelers over Hoopers that allow dogs to run faster? 

I guess same could be said of Tunnelers, why is that the fastest Class and only 1 obstacle like Hoopers?

Is it Course Designs allow for more speed in Tunnellers and Barrellers.

I know most dogs love Tunnellers and can zip in that Class. Do the Tunnels in Barrellers make that faster too?
Ed & Tres
Morristown, NJ

Dino (At the Bridge)

Ed and Dino

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Re: August 2018 and beyond Standard Course Times
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2018, 06:47:21 AM »
Another comment:

The data seems to only be based on trials in 2018 so only covers 2 seasons Winter and Spring.

Over the years I've observed that Summer trials can be hot, humid weather and dogs slow down and tire more easily.

A suggestion for future would be to include trials from All Seasons, especially outside summer trials.
Ed & Tres
Morristown, NJ

Dino (At the Bridge)

LyndaB

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Re: August 2018 and beyond Standard Course Times
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2018, 07:48:16 AM »
I'd just like to say how much I appreciate you all doing this. It looks like most of the changes are small, but should make a big difference to some dogs. We'd pretty much given up on getting any awards, as he just can't seem to make time in jumpers - even the flawless ones have been 1-2 seconds over time. I think we're going to go back to the trial this fall, and see what he can do. Thanks again!

-Lynda and Tycho

David Tharle

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Re: August 2018 and beyond Standard Course Times
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2018, 08:02:27 AM »
For those that like to compare, I think I have transferred things correctly. Red means a increase in yards per second (YPS). Green is a decrease in YPS.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 08:05:18 AM by David Tharle »
Dave Tharle
Ardmore, AB

mustlovedogstoo

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Re: August 2018 and beyond Standard Course Times
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2018, 08:16:11 AM »
Hi Chris
Listened to your video......are there still categories for vet handler and/or vet dog for sct.  Can you give us some information on that?  Thanks, Annette, Lily, and Bella
Annette Kuhls
Seattle, WA
Lily; NATCH JUM, O-ECC, EAC-600, O-TG-E, TNE-400, WV-E, Hp-E, Elite Versatility, XCC-N, OBR-N, S-XHP-O, XGT-O

Chris Nelson

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Re: August 2018 and beyond Standard Course Times
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2018, 09:54:50 AM »
Hi Chris - good info - just curious - looking at the runs for SCT file - how did you choose the sample? 

All runs that we currently had data for at the Elite level.

We had not always kept record of the yardage and course time for each run, after it was submitted by the club a lot of that info wasn't stored.
So that is why there is a bit of a lapse in data, since we really only started storing that around January.

So the numbers will become more and more accurate as time goes on for each passing year.

The reason we allowed these numbers to become the new SCT even with it being a smaller subset of the year is because it's pretty dead on with what we needed to do anyway.   Which is decrease SCT for the 4" class, and increase for the 20" class.

Chris Nelson

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Re: August 2018 and beyond Standard Course Times
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2018, 09:57:14 AM »
Looking at data, I assume this is only based on Q data, because I don't think NADAC gets data from non Qs.
Data seems to be from outside and inside trial locations but seems like a rather small data set.

So how would the times ever increase (allow more time for Q) if the correction of times is always based on Qs?

Glad to see Belle is in data, she is not a fast Elite Tunneller dog, so far, so her 2 Qs help to keep times slower.

Pondering question, why is it dogs are faster in Barrellers than Hoopers, is it the variety of Obstacles in Barrelers over Hoopers that allow dogs to run faster? 

I guess same could be said of Tunnelers, why is that the fastest Class and only 1 obstacle like Hoopers?

Is it Course Designs allow for more speed in Tunnellers and Barrellers.

I know most dogs love Tunnellers and can zip in that Class. Do the Tunnels in Barrellers make that faster too?

Correct we only receive Q Data.

All runs are from when we started storing the yardage and run time of each run, which is essentially January of 2018 and forward.  So it is a smaller subset of trials.

So the times will become more accurate as the years go on.

The main reason we decided to use these numbers is because they are very inline with what we needed to do, which is decrease SCT for the 4" group and increase for the 20" group.   


I can't say much on the time differences between classes :)

Chris Nelson

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Re: August 2018 and beyond Standard Course Times
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2018, 09:57:52 AM »
Another comment:

The data seems to only be based on trials in 2018 so only covers 2 seasons Winter and Spring.

Over the years I've observed that Summer trials can be hot, humid weather and dogs slow down and tire more easily.

A suggestion for future would be to include trials from All Seasons, especially outside summer trials.

Absolutely!    Looking forward to tracking this as time goes on now that we're recording yardage and run time in our main database

Chris Nelson

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Re: August 2018 and beyond Standard Course Times
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2018, 09:59:22 AM »
Hi Chris
Listened to your video......are there still categories for vet handler and/or vet dog for sct.  Can you give us some information on that?  Thanks, Annette, Lily, and Bella

You get your extra time now from the jump height break that those categories give you.

So a 20" dog who is running with a vet handler would be jumping 16", and gets the 16" time. 


Chris Nelson

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Re: August 2018 and beyond Standard Course Times
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2018, 10:31:45 AM »
Also folks one other thing that is important for the data supplied is that we ONLY took dogs that were jumping at their standard height, or 4" below.

So we didn't want to base Jumpers times off a 22" tall border collie who was jumping 12", as that's a pretty far cry from their wither height.

So if you only took one height break then you're data would be included, but if you took two height breaks it would be excluded from the data sheet.

Leanne

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Re: August 2018 and beyond Standard Course Times
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2018, 10:46:44 AM »
So for DRI over 100. You based it on the top 10% of Qs over that period of time,  NOT the top 10% of dogs who ran that fast.   

For some classes (i.e. 20" BR ). That includes far less different dogs as some fast dogs ( hi brothers Rev &JP7, and friend Coleby) really took most of those 100+ DRIs. 

Seems like a more accurate representation of the 100+ DRI groups would be to do a top percentage of dogs rather than runs???? 

Leanne

Leanne
Kent Island, MD

Maureen deHaan

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Re: August 2018 and beyond Standard Course Times
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2018, 10:59:02 AM »
Also folks one other thing that is important for the data supplied is that we ONLY took dogs that were jumping at their standard height, or 4" below.

So we didn't want to base Jumpers times off a 22" tall border collie who was jumping 12", as that's a pretty far cry from their wither height.

So if you only took one height break then you're data would be included, but if you took two height breaks it would be excluded from the data sheet.

Ok that makes more sense....was wondering why all the old skilled vets weren't represented
Maureen, Kiva & Zoe
Play~Bow
Kingston, NY

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Foomin Z

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Re: August 2018 and beyond Standard Course Times
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2018, 05:36:11 PM »
Pondering question, why is it dogs are faster in Barrellers than Hoopers, is it the variety of Obstacles in Barrelers over Hoopers that allow dogs to run faster? 

I guess same could be said of Tunnelers, why is that the fastest Class and only 1 obstacle like Hoopers?

Is it Course Designs allow for more speed in Tunnellers and Barrellers.

I know most dogs love Tunnellers and can zip in that Class. Do the Tunnels in Barrellers make that faster too?
I'd love to know the answer to that too, but who can know what dogs think? I just know what I have observed, that all dogs I have had ran more slowly in courses with all jumps or hoops. Although one does like intro jumpers, maybe because it isn't much more than out and back, no choices or thinking? At least times are calculated differently for each type of class. That's a good thing.