Allowing BIS to compete at trials

[Chris Nelson]

There has been some discussions lately of allowing bitches in season (BIS) to compete at trials.
This is a sensitive subject for most and not a decision we take lightly.

Because of this we are opening it up to a vote on whether NADAC should pursue the idea of allowing this at trials.
Please keep in mind this is NOT a vote for a rule change, only to gauge whether there is enough interest for us to spend the time considering the change.

You MUST have a paid dog registration with NADAC in order to vote, this is to ensure that the people supporting the venue are also the ones guiding it.

The basics for the idea is that BIS would be required to wear form fitting panties, run last in the class, and have a mat placed on the start line that the dog must be placed on when starting their run.

The voting will close on July 12th at Noon Pacific time

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/BISCompete

[mstomel]

They would be required to wear the panties when? Not while running right?

[Chris Nelson]

At this point this is purely to gauge interest, not even close to an idea of changing anything.

And by looking at the results so far it doesn't appear we're going to be spending much time thinking about it as it's pretty strongly favored as a no.

But to sort of answer your question, IF this were to ever happen they would need to wear them while running.    Which poses some issues in its self.

[knittingdog]

Just to add something some people may not have thought of to the discussion.  When the courses are designed such that they tend to start and stop in the same place, putting a mat down for the BIS at the end of each class doesn’t have much of an effect.  For example, a BIS that runs at the end of the Open class will have sat in the same start line spot as the dogs that run in the Novice or Elite classes that might follow the Open class.  Using a mat doesn’t make much difference in this case except to maybe keep it a little bit cleaner.

I saw this at ASCA Nationals one year is why I wanted to mention it.

Robin

[Lin Battaglia]

I run more than one dog but only got one vote. ??

[Chris Nelson]

It’s one vote per person.

Not per dog.

We will be removing any votes that don’t correspond to a paid nadac number, or votes that are from second or third dogs but the same handler.

The registration number is just to ensure the people voting are nadac competitors


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[Sheila & the Shelties]

I am fundamentally against bis competing at a trial, but I do feel it's fundamentally unfair. Should we require male dogs to be neutered to compete at a trial? I have seen some crazy dog behavior by unneutered male dogs, even over a female that has been spayed. And someone made a good point about the fact of what about the mothers of our future competitors? Shouldn't have females who have those future puppies be allowed to show their talent without restriction? I don't know what the answer to these questions are. The only reason I am against it is that I see a whole lot of complications from irresponsible people and uncontrollable dogs.

[Chris Nelson]

It’s not like keeping your female intact means you never get to play agility. 

Cam ( my dog) is still intact and we play at every single trial we can.  We’ve missed one trial this year because of her coming into heat,  not a big deal and the price I pay for keeping her intact.

I think folks are taking the argument to a bit of an extreme by saying that if we don’t allow BIS then they can’t play with us. 




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[rondadillard]

As the owner of an intact girl, there are two reasons to allow BIS to run: 1. The loss about 2 months each cycle or 4 months out of 12, and 2. Without a 100% refund policy, BIS are running today.
I am uncertain what NADAC's policy is regarding a BIS that scratches after closing, but the extremes are USDAA requires a fee for every dog entered as of closing and AKC requires zero dollars if a BIS is scratched. A girl coming into season isn't an exact science. You can tell she is getting close, but she isn't in season until the bleeding discharge appears. I enter my dogs on opening day, or as soon as premiums appear. Because I play by the rules, I start scratching my entries at closing (except for AKC) for trials that start five months after her last season began. I continue to scratch at closing until her season starts, the scratch the next three weeks. This tends to leave a 4 - 8 week period where she can't compete. Not everyone plays by those rules, and some will run their girl when she isn't actively bleeding so that they don't lose their entry fees. The NADAC trials I usually enter don't allow refunds after closing for any reason, so my intact girl who is due in early September won't enter a NADAC trial until October - assuming she comes in as expected.
At least she can continue to take class while in season, as long as she wears panties. We have made available the soiled liners for people to use as a training distraction, and class also presents a training opportunity for the boys to train through the distraction.

[lmschuft]

I’ve not been competing much lately, but have had bitches in heat and that was inconvient for certain competitions, including agility.  It is a short time frame they are cycling and I feel it is not a big deal to miss a competition.  Most venues offer a refund of entry fees if you have this happen.  I also think a bitch in heat can not be in the right mind set, depending on where in cycle she is, for competing.  If I happen to have a girl along that comes in heat I also try and keep her away from the trial area to be fair to others.  You usually know when you girl will cycle, so you try to plan around this. 

[mstomel]

It's probibly a moot point but I guess I don't understand the reason for the specific requirements if you were to allow BIS at trials. I mean, if a male can smell a BIS from a mile down the road, what will keeping panties on her while  running do besides make the humans feel better and also adding risk of injury? And I get the point of the matt but what if dogs scoot off the mat? Ya, I'm sure having a mat would make a start line stay easier, but most dogs get excited and readjust, so now they are sitting on the ground. Do they get an E now just because they didn't hold their stay on a mat? All these regulations seem to be about the human conceptions of BIS not for the dogs. It seems like either allow it or don't allow it. I can just see puppies in panties becoming just another thing for people to freak about too. "Well my dog has never seen a border collie in yellow flowered underwear before, he is just freaked out! Panties should only be neutral collars from now on! Panties must match the color pattern and flow of the dog!" And this is how the great underwear revolution starts.   

[Chris Nelson]

It's probibly a moot point but I guess I don't understand the reason for the specific requirements if you were to allow BIS at trials. I mean, if a male can smell a BIS from a mile down the road, what will keeping panties on her while  running do besides make the humans feel better and also adding risk of injury? And I get the point of the matt but what if dogs scoot off the mat? Ya, I'm sure having a mat would make a start line stay easier, but most dogs get excited and readjust, so now they are sitting on the ground. Do they get an E now just because they didn't hold their stay on a mat? All these regulations seem to be about the human conceptions of BIS not for the dogs. It seems like either allow it or don't allow it. I can just see puppies in panties becoming just another thing for people to freak about too. "Well my dog has never seen a border collie in yellow flowered underwear before, he is just freaked out! Panties should only be neutral collars from now on! Panties must match the color pattern and flow of the dog!" And this is how the great underwear revolution starts.   

Best response yet!

And to be 100% honest you’re correct.

All the rules that would be put in place are purely for the sake of the handlers and what they believe will help,  regardless of the fact that you could wrap the entire dog in Saran Wrap and duct tape and it wouldn’t make a bit of difference in regards to a dogs sense of smell and sensitivity to those odors.

While we’re on the honesty train I’ll also throw in that I do believe a dog can be worked through the distraction.   Do I believe that the majority of handlers will be able to do that with their dogs?  Absolutely not.

It’s the same as saying that anyone can solve a rubix cube in under 5 minutes,  it’s absolutely possible and just a matter of time and practice.
Does that mean anyone here is going to spend the time and effort to learn how to do it?   

Some will,  most won’t.

And for better or worse the majority rules.

If the stigma around the issue changes I could see our stance changing on it as well,  but at this point I don’t feel comfortable causing a upset over an issue that the majority of competitors don’t support, as evidenced by the voting.

So for the Pro-BIS people I understand your issues and I agree to a certain extent.   

But as a business I can’t change something that the majority does not want.   

And the changes that do happen even when the majority doesn’t agree are usually on bigger issues that pose a larger problem with the sport.

If we start allowing BIS we’re going to lose much more then we’ll gain.




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[Marcy Matties]

 
[/quote]
Best response yet!

All the rules that would be put in place are purely for the sake of the handlers and what they believe will help,  regardless of the fact that you could wrap the entire dog in Saran Wrap and duct tape and it wouldn’t make a bit of difference in regards to a dogs sense of smell and sensitivity to those odors.

While we’re on the honesty train I’ll also throw in that I do believe a dog can be worked through the distraction.   Do I believe that the majority of handlers will be able to do that with their dogs?  Absolutely not.

It’s the same as saying that anyone can solve a rubix cube in under 5 minutes,  it’s absolutely possible and just a matter of time and practice.
Does that mean anyone here is going to spend the time and effort to learn how to do it?   

Some will,  most won’t.

And for better or worse the majority rules.

If we start allowing BIS we’re going to lose much more then we’ll gain.

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[/quote]

And that would be a loss for EVERYONE.  Not just those people with intact females.

[Chris on Mushtown Road]

As the owner of an intact bitch, I voted yes because it appears that other agility organizations are following the change to allow them to run, and limited experience shows that  this isn't a terrible idea. Having said that with my little vote, I would likely choose to not run her. I get enough dirty looks <grin> because I have a barky dog, I don't need more stress for ME!

Chris

[Chris Nelson]

As the owner of an intact bitch, I voted yes because it appears that other agility organizations are following the change to allow them to run, and limited experience shows that  this isn't a terrible idea. Having said that with my little vote, I would likely choose to not run her. I get enough dirty looks <grin> because I have a barky dog, I don't need more stress for ME!

Chris

I’m more than happy to follow in their foot steps for this one!

But I’ve had enough drama in my short life of running nadac,  I don’t need to cause any more

If the other venues make it mandatory,  not just a club decision then we’ll heavily consider it.


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