Allowing BIS to compete at trials

[KarissaKS]

I don't even own an intact female (I do have two intact males), but I don't see how it's fair to penalize a segment of the population because some people can't control their dogs -- especially when a large percentage of the dissenters are likely basing their opinion only on speculation or stereotypes. There are likely a large number of competitors who are strongly against this and have probably worked their dog around a BIS without even knowing it.

With USDAA moving to allow BIS at all trials (not just Cyno) I'm curious to see if this trickles into AKC -- Because, after all, AKC is the ultimate promoter of the purebred dog, for which you kind of require intact females to continue the population. I hope that as this becomes more mainstream in the US people will stop blowing it out of proportion. As I saw stated in another discussion, they used to hide women away during their "unclean time" as well -- certainly glad we got over that archaic attitude. Perhaps one day we can do the same for our dogs.

[Chris Nelson]

As someone who owns a intact female,  it’s just not that big of a deal. 

If I’m keeping my girl intact for breeding then obviously breeding is a higher priority for me then competing,  and that’s my choice and choices have consequences.

You can’t always get everything you want,  sometimes you have to deal with not getting all the candy in the jar.




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[Sharon Nelson]

It's probibly a moot point but I guess I don't understand the reason for the specific requirements if you were to allow BIS at trials. I mean, if a male can smell a BIS from a mile down the road, what will keeping panties on her while  running do besides make the humans feel better and also adding risk of injury? And I get the point of the matt but what if dogs scoot off the mat? Ya, I'm sure having a mat would make a start line stay easier, but most dogs get excited and readjust, so now they are sitting on the ground. Do they get an E now just because they didn't hold their stay on a mat? All these regulations seem to be about the human conceptions of BIS not for the dogs. It seems like either allow it or don't allow it. I can just see puppies in panties becoming just another thing for people to freak about too. "Well my dog has never seen a border collie in yellow flowered underwear before, he is just freaked out! Panties should only be neutral collars from now on! Panties must match the color pattern and flow of the dog!" And this is how the great underwear revolution starts.   

Best response yet!

And to be 100% honest you’re correct.

All the rules that would be put in place are purely for the sake of the handlers and what they believe will help,  regardless of the fact that you could wrap the entire dog in Saran Wrap and duct tape and it wouldn’t make a bit of difference in regards to a dogs sense of smell and sensitivity to those odors.

While we’re on the honesty train I’ll also throw in that I do believe a dog can be worked through the distraction.   Do I believe that the majority of handlers will be able to do that with their dogs?  Absolutely not.

It’s the same as saying that anyone can solve a rubix cube in under 5 minutes,  it’s absolutely possible and just a matter of time and practice.
Does that mean anyone here is going to spend the time and effort to learn how to do it?   

Some will,  most won’t.

And for better or worse the majority rules.

If the stigma around the issue changes I could see our stance changing on it as well,  but at this point I don’t feel comfortable causing a upset over an issue that the majority of competitors don’t support, as evidenced by the voting.

So for the Pro-BIS people I understand your issues and I agree to a certain extent.   

But as a business I can’t change something that the majority does not want.   

And the changes that do happen even when the majority doesn’t agree are usually on bigger issues that pose a larger problem with the sport.

If we start allowing BIS we’re going to lose much more then we’ll gain.

Made my day!   Great answer, humorous and so correct!

I have intact females and that is my choice, so I also accept the guidelines about having an intact female.   I wasn't forced to keep my bitch intact, that was MY choice.  And I also choose to follow the logical rules about not having her at a show site when she is in heat.  If I wanted to ensure that I never miss a trial, then I have that CHOICE to spay her.

Good response, Chris!

[Lin Battaglia]

As a trainer who lives out of town in a country farm/ranch area, I do not allow females in heat to train in classes. As BIS bring the coyotes onto my training field and into my yard. Yes, they are here hunting nearly every night (sometimes during the day) but food is what they are looking for. Add in BIS, breeding, and they are get more scary and more aggressive. I should think people could give up three weeks of agility without much trouble. Plus the girls get hormonal crazy.

[KarissaKS]

it’s just not that big of a deal.

It's not that big of a deal, until it causes someone to miss a big national event that you spent a whole lot of time and money qualifying for. So then some argue, "Well maybe we can just let them run at nationals." As your average competitor, I would surely prefer that my dog be exposed to something like that at your average run-of-the-mill trial. If I'm concerned that my dog will have a problem working around BIS, I wouldn't want to find that out at nationals.

And what about areas that don't have trials year round? Here in TN we don't have NADAC trials in the summer. AKC trials are the only ones that pull in enough competitors to pay for air conditioning. So say I have an intact bitch who comes into season in September and March -- Well, there goes half of the NADAC trials available to me in my area.

So it may not be a big deal to YOU, but it may be to some.

I wonder how much of this hoopla is caused by the SPAY AND NEUTER ALL THE THINGS propaganda in the US. Overseas it is much more common to keep dogs entire, which I'm sure is why people don't bat an eye at them competing in trials.

[Jillhubb]

I see no need for a mat when britches are properly used, and I see no need to run the BIS out of order ~ Come on people, let these girls be … My girl in britches takes care of the issues discussed ~ Seems simple enough ~ She causes no havoc during our normal training sessions in class, what's the difference during a trial? ~

[Sharon Nelson]

I see no need for a mat when britches are properly used, and I see no need to run the BIS out of order ~ Come on people, let these girls be … My girl in britches takes care of the issues discussed ~ Seems simple enough ~ She causes no havoc during our normal training sessions in class, what's the difference during a trial? ~

Once you have seen a pair of "panties" caught on a jump cup and then temporarily hooked "to the dog" you might have a different opinion.  Until it happens to your dog, it isn't an issue....

[dogrsqr]

So do we really need to rehash all of this again? 

[Jackie]

I have an intact female.  Yes, I have missed a couple of trials because she was in season.  No big deal.  I think there are enough distractions at a trial site already for newbies.  Most people in this sport are in it for fun, not to take away from the serious competitors, but let's be honest.  It's about having fun with your dog.  I think it could be very discouraging for novice owners to have to deal with a bis running in the ring before their class.  And it's not just the intact males.  My altered males are very interested in girls, too.  Also, aren't we trying to make the sport safer for all?  I think there is a bigger tendency towards aggression when hormones are raging.  JMO. 

[Kyle]

I guess there's pluses and minuses for either sex both ways, whether bitches are allowed to run in season or not.

For the bitches, I do know for a fact, that there are many who do go through emotional changes while in season. Some become very soft - softer than normal in their work. Some just act like they are out in space somewhere. Some can do a little work and then just lose it. In these cases, most handlers feel like they are just beating their head against a wall to try and work these girlies. So, let's say, BIS are allowed to run at trials and you take your in season bitch who is having major emotional issues to a trial and *expect* her to do well, is this going to go well for you or your dog? Are you really going to pull from a trial or are you going to say to yourself you'll just "go for fun", when we all know when you get there it won't be fun at all for your dog...be honest with yourselves.... In my classes, I say take those 3 weeks off. It's just not worth it to the handler, the dog or their training program.  There are some females who act like nothing has changed in their life - what a relief to have one of those. But, they have been in the minority in my experience.

I also have problems like Lin Battaglia - coyotes. They come looking for a food source (my sheep) and then get doubly interested by bitches in season....great....  (There's things folks who come for lessons just never think about or realize because it's beyond their realm of reality...)

Now, there may be a whole ton of folks like Karissa who own intact males and have (probably) taken the time and found the opportunities to train their boys to do their work and ignore bitches in season. Honestly, I don't know a whole lot of them. I *do* know a whole lot of folks with intact males who use bitches in supposed season as a reason why their dog didn't do well. Oh my gosh, the *anger* at someone who has a suspect female! Sitting on the sidelines hearing this....ugh. If bitches in season would be allowed to run, I think this is going to just get worse....maybe not the anger but the excuse making....double ugh.

A long, long time ago, in the herding world, bitches in season were not allowed to run. Then they decided that should change and they allowed them to all run at the end of the day (no matter the class level). That was a total pain and seemed dumb so they changed it so the bitches in season all ran at the end of their class. Well, that was a pain too, and seemed dumb so now they all just run in order. No matter where the girls run, some males (intact or not) will still quit working to sniff. The scent lasts longer than overnight and certainly just the time of building a course will do *no* good whatsoever to alleviate the issue. (They don't wear panties either, so in herding we won't suffer the "Great Underwear Revolution"!!! hahaha! Thank you for that!! I LOVE it!!!) In herding, at least the dog's instinct will (usually) keep him working - there's no "instinct" really in doing agility so that's not going to help.

Personally I don't feel bitches in season should be allowed to enter because some of their owners don't always make good choices for their emotional girls, none of us want to hear the bitching from some intact male owners and no matter what plans are made to "alleviate the smell" (panties, start line rugs or whatever other pain in the butt hoops you make them jump through), it's still going to be there for dogs who have an amazing sense of smell that we can't even begin to understand. 

Guess I'm glad to see/hear that the results are not in favor of this. I don't even have a horse in this race as all my are altered - did the breeding thing, done with it. Nowadays, I want to be able to run my girls any day of the year I want to enter something. 

Just my humble opinion as always,
Kyle

[Pam Kaye]

Great post, Kyle.  Thank you.

[John H. Gooldy]

Biggest issue with the newer teeter that I see out there from Clip N Go is the price. Not many clubs have $1200 to buy one. Love seeing it at trials but see so many different teeters out there in other venues that we run at.

[Donna Kaye]

I am fundamentally against bis competing at a trial, but I do feel it's fundamentally unfair. Should we require male dogs to be neutered to compete at a trial? I have seen some crazy dog behavior by unneutered male dogs, even over a female that has been spayed. And someone made a good point about the fact of what about the mothers of our future competitors? Shouldn't have females who have those future puppies be allowed to show their talent without restriction? I don't know what the answer to these questions are. The only reason I am against it is that I see a whole lot of complications from irresponsible people and uncontrollable dogs.

I agree with this completely. I run an intact male and have worked hard on controlling his reaction to a BIS. But honestly, he loses his friggin mind!!!  I shudder to think about the mayhem that could ensue with handlers that don't put in the work for some type of control in this situation. Again, highly unfair to the competitors with BIS but a reality none the less.

[Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso]

I guess there's pluses and minuses for either sex both ways, whether bitches are allowed to run in season or not.

For the bitches, I do know for a fact, that there are many who do go through emotional changes while in season. Some become very soft - softer than normal in their work. Some just act like they are out in space somewhere. Some can do a little work and then just lose it. In these cases, most handlers feel like they are just beating their head against a wall to try and work these girlies. So, let's say, BIS are allowed to run at trials and you take your in season bitch who is having major emotional issues to a trial and *expect* her to do well, is this going to go well for you or your dog? Are you really going to pull from a trial or are you going to say to yourself you'll just "go for fun", when we all know when you get there it won't be fun at all for your dog...be honest with yourselves.... In my classes, I say take those 3 weeks off. It's just not worth it to the handler, the dog or their training program.  There are some females who act like nothing has changed in their life - what a relief to have one of those. But, they have been in the minority in my experience.

I also have problems like Lin Battaglia - coyotes. They come looking for a food source (my sheep) and then get doubly interested by bitches in season....great....  (There's things folks who come for lessons just never think about or realize because it's beyond their realm of reality...)

Now, there may be a whole ton of folks like Karissa who own intact males and have (probably) taken the time and found the opportunities to train their boys to do their work and ignore bitches in season. Honestly, I don't know a whole lot of them. I *do* know a whole lot of folks with intact males who use bitches in supposed season as a reason why their dog didn't do well. Oh my gosh, the *anger* at someone who has a suspect female! Sitting on the sidelines hearing this....ugh. If bitches in season would be allowed to run, I think this is going to just get worse....maybe not the anger but the excuse making....double ugh.

A long, long time ago, in the herding world, bitches in season were not allowed to run. Then they decided that should change and they allowed them to all run at the end of the day (no matter the class level). That was a total pain and seemed dumb so they changed it so the bitches in season all ran at the end of their class. Well, that was a pain too, and seemed dumb so now they all just run in order. No matter where the girls run, some males (intact or not) will still quit working to sniff. The scent lasts longer than overnight and certainly just the time of building a course will do *no* good whatsoever to alleviate the issue. (They don't wear panties either, so in herding we won't suffer the "Great Underwear Revolution"!!! hahaha! Thank you for that!! I LOVE it!!!) In herding, at least the dog's instinct will (usually) keep him working - there's no "instinct" really in doing agility so that's not going to help.

Personally I don't feel bitches in season should be allowed to enter because some of their owners don't always make good choices for their emotional girls, none of us want to hear the bitching from some intact male owners and no matter what plans are made to "alleviate the smell" (panties, start line rugs or whatever other pain in the butt hoops you make them jump through), it's still going to be there for dogs who have an amazing sense of smell that we can't even begin to understand. 

Guess I'm glad to see/hear that the results are not in favor of this. I don't even have a horse in this race as all my are altered - did the breeding thing, done with it. Nowadays, I want to be able to run my girls any day of the year I want to enter something. 

Just my humble opinion as always,
Kyle

I have to agree with you Kyle.  We have 3 intact females that are hunting dogs.  We can't hunt them when they are in season at all.  First, with hunting, we have NO idea what other dogs might be out there and we can't take that chance.  Second, as you said, they are an emotional mess.... UGH!  They are clingy, needy and just plain freaked out.  One of them gets outright bitchy as well.  They certainly wouldn't be in the right mindset to hunt, so I couldn't even see them trying to do something like agility.  And I don't think it is fair to the male dogs.  Our male dogs are around them when they are in heat, and they are STILL a PITA after more than 8 years and all those heat cycles!  They fight with each other, sit outside the crates and whine, or sit inside their crates and whine and often won't eat for days.  I wouldn't want to see what happens to a novice handler or a junior handler with a male around a BIS.

As someone else said, this is for fun.   And while yes, things can be trained, it is like anything else, some dogs and handlers will do better than others at the training.

[Lorrie Stelz]

I agree with what Chris stated--

 "If I’m keeping my girl intact for breeding then obviously breeding is a higher priority for me then competing,  and that’s my choice and choices have consequences.

You can’t always get everything you want,  sometimes you have to deal with not getting all the candy in the jar"


 as well as Audri's statement.

My boys are both neutered, but my male Kaiden was intact for 2.5 years and his sister drove him nuts when he was returned to his breeder before he was rehomed to me.  Despite him being neutered, he lived part of his life intact before I got him and I don't think it would take him long before he would go nuts again if he was around a BIS.  My issue is that I am not around any BIS's to "TRAIN" it as everyone says is "our" responsibility.  To me, this is not much unlike an injury where you are unexpectedly forced to take time off... at least you know somewhat when it might occur.  Insert Chris' statement here. We all can't compete every week of the year.  It's just a few times of the year that you don't trial with your BIS as it currently sits.

Do we really expect ALL nadac competitors to have access to TRAIN proper behavior around BISs?  Not going to happen. And, like someone mentioning novice dogs.... that would be tough on new dogs and handlers adding another big distraction they may have not had availablity to "train" for.  I have many breeder friends who don't see issues with not trialing with their BIS... when their bitch is in season, they just don't trial and they don't ever complain. 

Nothing is black and white obviously.  Just stating my opinion from another angle.