Facility With Turf for Champs

[John H. Gooldy]

Chris,
     Do you ever foresee Champs at a location with turf? Watching this years Champs and looks like a great facility but with dirt just wonder if conditions are equal for all jump heights. Just wondering what your thinking is on turf and possibilities of some day running Champs on it. I know you are quite busy right now so when time permits would love to hear your thoughts. Thanks. John

[KarissaKS]

Are you aware of a facility with turf that is large enough to host Champs *and* allows dogs? That might be a limiting factor.

Dirt (good dirt) is my preferred surface. I now live in an area of the country (TN) where trials are almost exclusively on dirt, but I moved here from the great white north where our trials were all on turf or mats, so I know it's a vastly different experience for those who aren't used to it. I used to drive 4+ hours to find a trial on dirt (generally with another organization)  to get my dogs on that surface before Champs.

My main concern with turf is that it's not all created equal. Some is very slippery, so I'm sure this comes into consideration since NADAC has some very fast dogs. In general, dirt is a safe and forgiving surface when well-maintained.

[John H. Gooldy]

Not wanting to start a argument but a discussion. Never been to Champs. So why not educate me on what it takes. 2 rings or more? Dirt is great to run on when it is fair for all heights. Love those fast dogs but no venue can just make it on there fast dogs. It takes $$$$ from all size dogs to keep them all profitable. Help me with what it takes and then maybe we can continue this discussion. Thanks in advance for your experiences at Champs.

[knittingdog]

What do you think is the advantage on turf?  Not all turf is created equal.  There are also studies showing that turf causes more injuries for human athletes.  I have to question whether my own dog recently sustained a minor injury resulting from catching or jamming a toe on older turf at a local soccer arena.

Granted turf is cleaner, but I agree that well maintained dirt is best.

Robin & Surge

[John H. Gooldy]

All dogs play on a level playing surface on turf. Weave poles are really hard on smaller breeds when trying to weave in big ruts. The key point to your statement is well maintained dirt. Dogs can be injured on any surface. Just wanting to get Chris's thoughts. Not here to start up a argument but a good discussion. Those studies you speak of about turf could you lead me to them. Thanks

[Anne Etherton]

How many people remember the year NADAC brought in turf in Mankato, MN?  Overwatering caused a big headache.

Anne

[knittingdog]

Go look up turf toe and in increase in knee injuries in humans.  I'm sure you can do a web search and find all that stuff.

 

[KarissaKS]

How many people remember the year NADAC brought in turf in Mankato, MN?  Overwatering caused a big headache.

Anne

That would be sod, I believe John is referring to artificial turf as would be found in indoor soccer arenas.

Ruts and deep spots are a real concern when competing on dirt surfaces. It's important to rake the weave poles regularly and I believe NADAC is good about doing this -- especially when going from big to small dogs. I don't think anyone is trying to start an argument of turf vs dirt and which is better, but I believe it's come up in the past and the limiting factor mostly seems to be facility. Without a facility it's hard to even throw it out there for consideration. It's more than just arena size (which is very large), but also crating, vending, scoring, RVs, etc. From what I gather, it's often difficult to meet all of these requirements even with the large dirt coliseums.

[Audri, Cee Cee, Lily, Toto, and Calypso]

How many people remember the year NADAC brought in turf in Mankato, MN?  Overwatering caused a big headache.

Anne

That would be sod, I believe John is referring to artificial turf as would be found in indoor soccer arenas.

Ruts and deep spots are a real concern when competing on dirt surfaces. It's important to rake the weave poles regularly and I believe NADAC is good about doing this -- especially when going from big to small dogs. I don't think anyone is trying to start an argument of turf vs dirt and which is better, but I believe it's come up in the past and the limiting factor mostly seems to be facility. Without a facility it's hard to even throw it out there for consideration. It's more than just arena size (which is very large), but also crating, vending, scoring, RVs, etc. From what I gather, it's often difficult to meet all of these requirements even with the large dirt coliseums.

I prefer to run on dirt, but as someone who runs a little dog (11" at the shoulders) I do remember being in Champs in Springfield and being second dog on day 1.  The turf was "fluffy" still from being turned and my poor dog really had a rough time in it.  He literally was in dirt up to his elbows and he struggled even running the course.  I also ran later with another bigger dog, and there really are ruts through the course especially on the landing side of jumps and exits of tunnels and weave poles.  They were raking weave poles but not the others.  And raking only does so much for loose dirt.  There are also some ruts where PEOPLE run and turn that don't get raked.  That being said, I still would prefer good dirt to turf because it is far easier on ME and my knees as well and quite honestly, my dogs LOVE to run on dirt and do well on it.

[Foomin Z]

Just like the "issue" with the teeter elsewhere in the forum, there is no need for surface to be equalized among all heights, because NADAC does not make dogs from different heights compete against each other, even at champs. Yes, there are other champs/nationals that will award a prize that combines all heights, but NADAC does not.

Regarding ruts for the small dogs in the weaves, if the weave areas get raked and stamped during jump height changes, that should mostly take care of the issue. However, if a small yet heavy and powerful dog is first up at a height change, they're going to create ruts for the rest of the height. No one can help that. You just gotta do your best.

[John H. Gooldy]

What do you run?

[Vicki Storrs]

Not wanting to start a argument but a discussion. Never been to Champs. So why not educate me on what it takes. 2 rings or more? Dirt is great to run on when it is fair for all heights. Love those fast dogs but no venue can just make it on there fast dogs. It takes $$$$ from all size dogs to keep them all profitable. Help me with what it takes and then maybe we can continue this discussion. Thanks in advance for your experiences at Champs.

A couple years back Sharon said they looked for a 200’ x 300’ clear span arena (I think that’s what you call it—no poles or pillars in the arena).  That’s like 3 regular NADAC Agility fields. The point was that Champs courses themselves were bigger, plus they have the staging areas/chutes leading into and out of the course and then sometimes a larger warm up area. Things may have changed some now, but it still needs to be pretty darn big. In looking around at horse facilities they were very often not even close to that size. I don’t have Much experience with turf facilities, but certainly haven’t seen any this size. But that doesn’t mean they may not be out there. LOL
Plus you need bleachers, vendor space, crating space and plentiful RV parking. And reasonable rates. Concessions are certainly nice. Restrooms or at least plentiful, frequently pumped porti potties (unlike in Ohio in 2017).  Areas to walk and exercise the dogs are so nice. And we all love having the live feed, right?  So that capability is a plus.
And it needs to be in a location that will result in entries, Champs is an expensive undertaking so it needs entries to make it viable,  so it’s nice  if it’s in a NADAC area or near enough to draw NADAC competitors.
Does that get you started?   
Vicki
 

[John H. Gooldy]

Thanks for the info.

[jrtsdoitall]

Every surface has it's own pluses and minuses for any group of dogs (by size, speed, etc).  There have been some studies. Honestly I would love to see more and more in depth studies looking into benefits and risks for various groups.

Any time you run on grass, turf, dirt, or any mixture there of ruts and wetness can be a concern. In dirt/mixtures it's not only ruts/wetness but overall depth of dirt as well as dirt vs sand ratios that can impact some dogs more heavily then others.  I will say depth needs to REALLY be looked at both at local and national events. It can quickly become not just unfair but a health/injury concern for all dogs but especially for our shorter legged partners...speaking as the owner of a dog who came back from a Champs with some significant overuse and strain issues from running in too deep of a dirt/sand mix. I've learned to become a surface snob and yep there are events we just don't go to because that is my choice).

Mats and astroturf...not all are created equal.  There is a huge difference in the amount of grip vs slip between manufacturers (and it changes with age and maintenance).  Though I will say I think overall mats and astroturf provide a more "level" field as far as footing challenges.

All have assorted risk factors for injuries, wipe out, etc... There is no perfect surface for every dog. We all have to pick and choose which surfaces fit our team best and weigh the pros and cons.  I understand why champs tends to be on dirt...it's hard to find facilities with sufficient ring, crating, vendor, and camping space for a National event. I do think it would be nice to have it on a different surface now and then so teams who don't run on dirt or don't run well on it (despite practice) perhaps get a "chance" as well. But I understand the difficulties in finding suitable facilities.

[aprweber]

For what it's worth, college football has found that artificial turf grows all sorts of nasty bacteria, far more than just dirt. And, there is no good way to clean it.

The one time I ran on artificial turf, static electricity was a problem for me.

April