Author Topic: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program  (Read 33746 times)

Ed and Tres

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2018, 04:58:59 PM »
So let's keep in mind this was just an 'idea', not any kind of rule change or anything that's definitely happening :)

With that said it would strictly be a a way to disqualify folks from entering Pre-Elite when they don't truly have a Pre-Elite dog.

So if you have 200 points in Elite Chances, 200 points in Elite Jumpers, but you keep your dog in Open Regular so you can enter Pre-Elite.  Technically right now someone could do this.

By including Jumpers and Chances we could fix that.   It's not your qualification needed, strictly what would disqualify you from entering Pre-Elite with a dog who isn't truly belonging there.

Actually for some dogs this could disqualify them more quickly than the 100 lifetime Elite regular Qs.

So I don't like this hypothetical change. Belle has qualified for Pre-Elite for 2019, she needs maybe 4 more Open Regular to get her Open Superior and then will move to Elite Regular, she already has 2 Elite Jumper Qs with the hypothetical change, if she got 8 Elite Regular Qs she would be in No Mans land, she's proven she can do Elite jumpers and likely will get more of them next Spring too.

As it is with 2018 qualification rules, we need to be careful she does not get 10 Elite Regular Qs before Sept 15, 2019 or she gets bumped to Elite(??) champs or disqualified(??) and she only has 1 Novice Chances Q on her report card.
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cheyaut

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2018, 04:51:49 AM »
One of my dogs is now stuck in no mans land, too, because of chances. I took her this year, pre elite, and had a lot of fun (and she placed in several rounds). But now she's moved to elite in regular, so no more champs for her. Distance is NOT her thing, and while we are getting SOME, it's not enough for even most novice chances courses, and that's ok with me. She prefers me close, and I prefer to run happy dogs, so I allow her preference. I'm ok knowing she can't go to Champs anymore, and I'm glad she got to this year :)

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BeckyAH

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2018, 05:34:09 AM »
So let's keep in mind this was just an 'idea', not any kind of rule change or anything that's definitely happening :)

With that said it would strictly be a a way to disqualify folks from entering Pre-Elite when they don't truly have a Pre-Elite dog.

So if you have 200 points in Elite Chances, 200 points in Elite Jumpers, but you keep your dog in Open Regular so you can enter Pre-Elite.  Technically right now someone could do this.

By including Jumpers and Chances we could fix that.   It's not your qualification needed, strictly what would disqualify you from entering Pre-Elite with a dog who isn't truly belonging there.

Actually for some dogs this could disqualify them more quickly than the 100 lifetime Elite regular Qs.


I think the *idea* is to disqualify more dogs from Pre-Elite and encourage more people to enter in Elite, so as to keep the Pre-Eite division from 'taking over' champs, as opposed to serving as a way for inexperienced young dogs to get experience in the environment, and to narrow how 'big' the space between Elite and Pre-Elite.

I'm not saying that you're wrong for not liking it, just that it serves that function. 

Personally, I'm pretty okay with it.    It doesn't personally impact me (right now), but I understand the reasoning and am okay with that reasoning.  For me, Champs is a thing you *earn* with a dog, Elite is the point and goal and pre-elite is a test run for dogs who are going to get there in a year or so, but not necessarily a thing you are going to get.  Elite-Champs is filling up further and faster recently, making Pre-Elite even less a priority.  This is me.  I understand this is me.

I also completely, COMPLETELY, understand why some people would be upset by it.

Ed and Tres

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2018, 08:11:52 AM »

I think the *idea* is to disqualify more dogs from Pre-Elite and encourage more people to enter in Elite, so as to keep the Pre-Eite division from 'taking over' champs, as opposed to serving as a way for inexperienced young dogs to get experience in the environment, and to narrow how 'big' the space between Elite and Pre-Elite.

I'm not saying that you're wrong for not liking it, just that it serves that function. 

Personally, I'm pretty okay with it.    It doesn't personally impact me (right now), but I understand the reasoning and am okay with that reasoning.  For me, Champs is a thing you *earn* with a dog, Elite is the point and goal and pre-elite is a test run for dogs who are going to get there in a year or so, but not necessarily a thing you are going to get.  Elite-Champs is filling up further and faster recently, making Pre-Elite even less a priority.  This is me.  I understand this is me.

I also completely, COMPLETELY, understand why some people would be upset by it.

I also understand NADAC wanting to put dogs at Champs in the correct entry. The issue I feel is that Elite requires the 100 Regular points AND 40 Jumpers AND 40 Chances during the qualification period.

So there is no jumper or chances criteria for Pre-Elite, just 100 Open or Novice Regular points.

The "NO Mans" land occurs because you may have a Dog that can blow Elite Regular away, which is generally what Champs is, and be lacking in Chances or Jumpers. This is the dog that can go to Champs in Pre-Elite and then suddenly no longer can attend.

Belle's case in point. At the 2017 Champs she came in 2nd to last in the whole trial including Pre-Elite. I'm sure she was one of the dogs some people did not think should be at Champs at all. However it was a great experience for her and 2 years later she will likely do much better in 2019, if her handler can get time off to attend Champs in the Pre-Elite division.

Who knows what may happen in 2019 to 2020, if she develops Chances skills but as it is now in 2021 when Champs may be Eastern location. She may not be able to qualify for Elite because she may not get 40 Chances points. She will likely have more than 100 Elite Regular lifetime by then. Her only way to attend as currently defined would be a 2nd chance entry for the Elite division, which makes future planning difficult.

If I were "King" of NADAC, I would have Elite based on just the 100 Elite Regular points during qualification period, and must have some lifetime points in any other Elite Class. I would drop the rule that if you have 100 Elite lifetime Regular you need to enter Elite and then not have the other criteria to do so.

Obviously if you go to Champs without Elite Chances skills then you will not get any distance tests and loose points but your dog still can put up a decent show of it and most importantly have a FUN time for that team.
Ed & Tres
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dogrsqr

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2018, 08:15:12 AM »
I'm not sure that anything will keep people from sandbagging if that's what they want to do as there is no requirement to move onto the next level.  It seems like years ago if you got one Elite regular leg before champs you were in Elite. 

Sometimes things just don't align for champs.  I have a novice 2+ year old dog that is in open jumpers and just recently moved to Novice regular.  I'm not going to let champs dictate what we do.  If she were to end up qualifying in Elite we just wouldn't run in champs until the following year.

MoabDiane

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #50 on: November 17, 2018, 06:14:50 PM »
My two cents worth: championships is just that, for champions. The fact that there are pre-champs runs means pretty much anyone can run those. I would like to see championships be for elite-level  dogs! While I have had a dog entered in Pre-elite, it just seemed wrong at the time.  Sure, it’s great to get them used to the atmosphere. But pre-champs does that as well, I think. Back to lurking
now…
Diane

KarissaKS

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2018, 07:06:21 AM »
My two cents worth: championships is just that, for champions. The fact that there are pre-champs runs means pretty much anyone can run those. I would like to see championships be for elite-level  dogs! While I have had a dog entered in Pre-elite, it just seemed wrong at the time.  Sure, it’s great to get them used to the atmosphere. But pre-champs does that as well, I think. Back to lurking
now…
Diane

Not going to disagree. When Pre-Elite was brought back it seemed like a nice little addition -- especially for those of us who were running our more experienced dogs in the big event and wanted to give our baby dogs something to do. (Side runs in 2017 were good for that, too!) But then it just blew up and became this huge thing. Personally, I'd almost rather see Pre-Elite go away again and just modify the entry requirements to the "regular" event to eliminate Chances, or accept Chances Qs from any level other than Intro, since that seems to be everyone's hangup. If the entry to the main event still allows qualifiers from Open Regular then I think this should be pretty achievable for those who want to attend. This might serve to boost the numbers of some of the divisions (I know I would prefer to compete against more than 4-5 dogs).

Attending a national event shouldn't be a given. Some people will fail to meet the qualifying requirements. I don't always hit the mark for the other organizations in which I compete. That doesn't mean they need to change the requirements to make it easier. I guess it largely comes down to the organization's goals. If they are trying to make entry numbers more manageable they might up the requirements. If they are trying to increase attendance they might make it a little easier. NADAC definitely achieved the goal of upping their numbers this year. And with two rings this seems to be doable.  They just need to determine the direction they want the event to go, at the risk of Pre-Elite becoming larger than the main event.
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dogrsqr

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2018, 09:04:01 AM »
I guess i don't understand why it's ok to lower the requirements on Chances and then not have pre-elite.  If too many people are qualifying for pre-elite I'd rather see the requirements increase.  I also don't think you should be able to have an elite regular title and run in pre-elite.  If your dog is not truly not pre-elite you should enter elite or not enter. 

I also don't think Champs is just for champions.  If that were the case there would be alot fewer dogs there, entry fees would have to ve considerably higher, and there'd be no one sitting inthe stands watching the finals.


Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #53 on: November 19, 2018, 07:20:43 AM »
Okay so in regards to all the bonus stuff.

It is what it is and won't be changing for this year.

Chris,
I was just reading the 2019 Info Page for Champs.
It states that Stakes dogs need to run in the level they are qualified for, but in your response above, you said that the qualifications would stay the same as this year.

Which one is correct?
Thanks
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Amanda Nelson

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #54 on: November 19, 2018, 09:40:14 AM »
Okay so in regards to all the bonus stuff.

It is what it is and won't be changing for this year.

Chris,
I was just reading the 2019 Info Page for Champs.
It states that Stakes dogs need to run in the level they are qualified for, but in your response above, you said that the qualifications would stay the same as this year.

Which one is correct?
Thanks


The number of bonuses required for each level will remain the same (the qualifications).

Stakes will be required to run in the level they qualified for.

Amanda


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Lorrie Stelz

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #55 on: November 19, 2018, 04:17:52 PM »
just my 2 cents.... I fully agree with Diane's post.  Wish it would return to that.  And as Karissa said, some people just can't get qualified for a national event and that does not mean that rules should be made easier.  It's a Championships for Champion level  dogs.
If people want to play with their non-Elite Dogs, then PreChamps would be perfect there and can make up some money maybe not obtained in the regular Championships.
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Rosemary

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #56 on: November 20, 2018, 06:12:46 AM »
I agree as well.  My only objection is that "no mans land".  It doesn't seem right to me to have a team be disallowed from one group without allowing them into the other.  I know of people who are struggling with the chances requirement so they are keeping their dog in open regular until they get that qualification.  They would prefer to move up, but don't want to end up not allowed at all.  The distance challenge at champs, last I knew, was optional with only a point fault.  It also didn't seem to be as hard as some of the open courses that are required for the qualifications. 
Personally, I like to make sure my dogs are well qualified as there are always surprises at champs.  Anyway, that's my two cents.

dogrsqr

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #57 on: November 20, 2018, 12:45:23 PM »
So what defines a championship level dog.?  In my opinion it wouldn't be a dog who is only in elite regular and unable to run at th e same level inall the other NADAC classes.


Lorrie Stelz

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #58 on: November 20, 2018, 03:58:54 PM »
Gina-- my 2 cents... the dog is able to run and qualify in Elite level courses.  That puts the dog on the route to Championships as far as NATCHs and is at a level able to compete in all Elite level courses. 
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Amy McGovern

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #59 on: November 20, 2018, 07:37:08 PM »
But Lorrie, the problem is that it requires elite regular *and* elite or open chances.  Many of us can do regular long before we can do chances (I know you rock at chances but you have seen us, we definitely don't and I am not alone in this.  Sharon and Chris have both posted numbers on this in the past!).  so if you move up to elite regular (or if we use Chris's proposed rule and combine chances, jumpers, and regular), you are disqualified for pre-elite long before you can qualify for elite.  Easy solution is to allow novice chances to count. 
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