Author Topic: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program  (Read 33774 times)

BeckyAH

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #60 on: November 20, 2018, 07:53:36 PM »
The other, also easy, alternative is to do away with Pre-Elite entirely and allow Pre-Champs to be where younger dogs get experience.   Or to make 'Pre-Elite' something that is harder (rather than easier) to qualify for.   Something for dogs who are CLOSE to being able to qualify for the regular division, but aren't *quite* there.   Add Jumpers and Chances requirements to it, even, to close the no-man's land gap, some, but without making the regular division easier (and yes, doing either will mean some dogs just don't get there).

I don't do well with chances, particularly not my small dog.  It is hard for us.  We eeked out an Open Chances title.  Have never qualified in Elite Chances, may never.  We may or may not get the Chances Qs necessary to qualify for champs this year.  It's HARD.  (Don't even talk about my other dogs and their variable struggles, but they are there and I do get it).

But I feel like making it easier to qualify for champs with novice Qs is kind of defeating the purpose of champs being champs.  This is me.  I'm not saying anyone else has to agree.  I understand why others won't, or might not, and how they feel - I TRULY do.    I'm not saying you're wrong to feel that way, or that I'm right.

Just that, for me, champs is not meant to be inclusive.   It's one of the few places I feel like that in dog sports.  I want everyone to have goals, paths forward, titles and awards and ways to succeed, but for champs - I feel like it's supposed to be hard - even to the point of being downright impossible - for every dog and handler to make. 
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 07:57:00 PM by BeckyAH »

Lorrie Stelz

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #61 on: November 21, 2018, 01:15:23 AM »
Becky, yes I agree totally. Eliminate pre elite. Keep preChamps. Tests the best dogs in the ultimate tests of the year.
Amy, I donít know what the answer is. Chaney was not a natural at distance and we worked our asses off learning how to succeed at those challenges. Just her and me and we did it on our own. Lots and lots of training. Your dogs can do it!  Eve got her NATCH. 😊
Personally I think there needs to be more distance challenges at Champs. NADAC is know for distance work. The challenges there are minimal. Iíd love to see harder distance challenge tests in the Champs runs.
Lorrie Stelz
Kaiden: NATCH 16 V-NATCH 13 AA NATCH 5 Tartan Bay More Than Meets The Eye PT BN RI URO1 MX MXJ MXF EGC TKI IT
Tripp: NATCH 11, V-NATCH 6 AA NATCH 5 BB's Embrace The Journey CD BN RN URO1 EGC TKI IT
Sketch: NATCH, VersNATCH Nothin' But A Good Time TKI, IT

Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #62 on: November 21, 2018, 08:26:16 AM »
So let's keep in mind this was just an 'idea', not any kind of rule change or anything that's definitely happening :)

With that said it would strictly be a a way to disqualify folks from entering Pre-Elite when they don't truly have a Pre-Elite dog.

So if you have 200 points in Elite Chances, 200 points in Elite Jumpers, but you keep your dog in Open Regular so you can enter Pre-Elite.  Technically right now someone could do this.

By including Jumpers and Chances we could fix that.   It's not your qualification needed, strictly what would disqualify you from entering Pre-Elite with a dog who isn't truly belonging there.

I like the idea of this.  It would definitely keep the dogs out of pre-elite that don't belong there.   I can see where someone might have all of those and then stop at 90 elite regular points to stay in pre-elite.  Not what I would do, but it would happen.  But you still have the no-mans land to deal with.  I personally, have held Calypso back in some events out of open just because we are far behind in others and I don't want to push her too much, and with 8 events per day, we still run 6 events. 
Audri, Lily, Cee Cee and Toto, Calypso

Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #63 on: November 21, 2018, 08:46:30 AM »
My two cents worth: championships is just that, for champions. The fact that there are pre-champs runs means pretty much anyone can run those. I would like to see championships be for elite-level  dogs! While I have had a dog entered in Pre-elite, it just seemed wrong at the time.  Sure, itís great to get them used to the atmosphere. But pre-champs does that as well, I think. Back to lurking
nowÖ
Diane

I totally disagree with this.  I LOVE pre-elite.  I think it is a good addition.  First and foremost, it gets more people to attend.  If you eliminate all of those pre-elite dogs, you lose all of the money that they pay in their entry fee to be able to fund this event.  Second, it is not just "something for my other dog to do", it is an event for a dog that may not be quite there for the "big" event, but ready to compete on a national level.  I  was a competitive swimmer.  We had a national event you had to qualify for, but there was an A class (the higher class) and a B class (the next level).  It still took a lot to qualify for both events, but it got a lot more people to attend.  Third, it would STILL eliminate those people who can't get chances or jumpers Q's.  They still wouldn't qualify for the event so it doesn't help in that aspect.  I get that those people are frustrated, and I feel for them, but they also don't necessarily belong in pre-elite either.

I also don't think that Pre-champs gets dogs used to the atmosphere.  There are not people sitting around in the bleachers, the speakers aren't going, the courses are not bigger, etc.  Pre-champs is what I do to get my dogs warmed up for the event. 
Audri, Lily, Cee Cee and Toto, Calypso

Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #64 on: November 21, 2018, 08:48:55 AM »
just my 2 cents.... I fully agree with Diane's post.  Wish it would return to that.  And as Karissa said, some people just can't get qualified for a national event and that does not mean that rules should be made easier.  It's a Championships for Champion level  dogs.
If people want to play with their non-Elite Dogs, then PreChamps would be perfect there and can make up some money maybe not obtained in the regular Championships.

Pre-champs wouldn't make up the money that is lost by eliminating pre-elite.  It is $275.00 for a pre-elite entry.  I would run my dog in MAYBE 2 events at $12.00 each for a total of $24.00 and I don't do side runs during champs if they were to add that. 
Audri, Lily, Cee Cee and Toto, Calypso

aprweber

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #65 on: November 21, 2018, 11:37:11 AM »
It looks to me as if the theme of this thread has evolved into how to change requirements so that ďonly truly championship quality dogs attend.Ē

If thinning the field is the goal, add a DRI requirement.  More than once, as I waited for my turn this year, I heard people bemoaning the presence of slow dogs.  Granted, I was there with one double digit dog and one pre elite dog, so my sample is skewed. If a DRI over 70 was used, it would have kept us from competing at Champs.

If there is no pre elite, no double digit, and requirements are created to cull potential competitors, more venues might be added to the list. A smaller venue should save money. Eliminating two divisions saves money on awards.

Also, are there any numbers on percentage of those eligible that actually attend?

I believe the current requirements do an adequate job of letting competitors know if they should consider Champs.  It all depends on what one wants the requirements to do.  As my dear old Dad says, ďAnybody can make up a test nobody can pass, but that isnít what a test is for. ď

April
Brekka NATCh 9 V NATCh 5 (now retired)
Harrie NATCh 19 V NATCh 15 All Around NATCh 3
Wyn just finished Open All Around
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Billie Rosen

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #66 on: November 21, 2018, 04:08:30 PM »
I love the Pre-Elite option for dogs that are not ready for Elite.  NADAC as an organization welcomes dogs of various speeds, of various experience levels, of various breeds and ages.  Championships should be a place where dogs that can succeed consistently on weekend courses can compete against their peers.  Every year, there are plenty of dogs that are unlikely to make finals, but people and dogs still have a great time at Champs.

I think it was great that NADAC had a record breaking entry this year at Champs.  Lots of great dogs ran their hearts out.  I saw very few dogs I didn't think belonged there.  So I urge that you don't change the qualifications other than the already announced change of not including Intro Q's in the points requirement. 
Billie Rosen, Phoenix, AZ    agilek9s@phopaws.org
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kbriefel

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #67 on: November 22, 2018, 11:29:11 AM »
Iíve only been to Champs once, with a 2 year old dog, in 2017.  We competed in Elite Champs.  Maybe Iím jaded because I had a competitive dog but I wanted to compete with the best dogs on hard courses.  Iíd always heard about distance requirements on courses at Champs and was disappointed not to see those.  A Championship to me is an event that tests dog and handlers, not one which is open to dogs that canít even Q in all the Elite classes.  The idea of holding my dog back because he was young was suggested to me and rejected.  Seems to me that the issue is whether this is a Championship or a National gathering.  Just my 2 cents.

Ken Briefel and Max

Ed and Tres

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #68 on: November 22, 2018, 05:38:50 PM »
So seeing so many responses about Elite should only be for Champions, then any dog not a Champion should be allowed to enter Pre-Elite, if qualified.

I just want to see the "No Mans" land or the "Catch-22" eliminated from the Elite / Pre-Elite qualifications.
If you can run in Pre-Elite one year then you should not be excluded if you still can meet that criteria and are not able to meet Elite criteria.

Pre-Elite says any dog may enter:
At least 100 points must have been earned in the current qualifying year from the Regular Agility class in Novice, Open or Elite, with the exception that a dog entered in Pre-Elite cannot have earned more than 100 points in Elite Regular in their lifetime up to September 30th , 2018. If a dog earns more than 100 points in Elite Regular, then their entry will be switched to the Elite level.


Elite (or should I say Champion) dogs must have:
At least 100 points must have been earned in the current qualifying year from the Regular Agility class at the Open or Elite level.
At least 40 points must have been earned in the current qualifying year, at the Open or Elite level, in each of the Jumpers and Chances classes.

So just change the Disqualification out of Pre-Elite to say the following:

A dog may enter Pre-Elite with the exception that a dog entered in Pre-Elite cannot have earned more than 100 points in Elite Regular with 40 or more Open/Elite points in Jumpers and with 40 or more Open/Elite points in Chances in their lifetime up to September 30th , 2019. If a dog earns those lifetime points, then their entry will be switched to the Elite level.


If the Elite entrants only want Champion level dogs and 40 points of Jumpers & Chances in a year period with 100 Elite Regular points makes you a Champion, then if you do not get those 40 points in Jumpers and Chances yet you still do 100 or more Elite Regular, you are not a Champion and your dog should be able to run in Pre-Elite.

Or as others have suggested make Pre-Elite harder and have it include 40 Novice Jumpers and 40 Novice Chances in the qualifying year.

My other comment is not many handlers would come to Pre-Champs without a dog in Elite/Pre-Elite.
Pre-Champs is not the same thing and not worth the travel / expense, most would choose to just go to a local trial.
Pre-Champs is not a substitute for Pre-Elite.
Ed & Tres
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Amy McGovern

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #69 on: November 22, 2018, 07:54:12 PM »
Speaking as someone who just ran pre-elite for the first time, I thought it was fabulous and I'd hate to see it go away.  We had a ton of fun and it was great to be with the other baby dogs who have lots of fun running but sometimes just do baby-dog stuff!  Even though we placed several times (and made finals), that doesn't mean my baby dog was ready for the elite ring.  Some people seem to be saying it should all go back to one ring but, I for one, would never have made the choice to run if there wasn't a separate more-beginner-dog-appropriate ring.  She simply isn't quite ready for the elite ring.  Also, for people coming with multiple dogs and potentially multiple members of the family running dogs (as we did), it was great to have two rings and made it easier to justify the long trip.  If only one dog could run, it would have been a lot harder for us all to come.  Yes the elite ring was the reason we came but I personally didn't even get to run in it.  And pre-champs definitely doesn't take the place of pre-elite.  It was fun but more like the largest trial you have ever been to (can you imagine elite chances taking 3 hours to run at a regular show?).  It wasn't a replacement for the excitement of pre-elite and stretching yourself and trying new things, sometimes failing and sometimes succeeding. 
Amy and the schnauzers

knittingdog

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #70 on: November 24, 2018, 07:10:16 AM »

I agree to hang on to preElite.  Surge wasn't ready for the big time just yet, but it was great for him to get the experience of a National event.  PreChamps is nothing like Champs.  PreChamps is more like a huge weekend trial.  The environment isn't near as controlled and the mindset is very different.  For me, preChamps is more about getting the initial butterflies out or a warmup on the new equipment for the big event.  PreElite is more like experiencing the real thing and a great intro to it.

Robin & Surge

Janice_Shavor

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #71 on: November 24, 2018, 07:19:10 AM »
I have participated in CHAMPS / NATIONALS in 2 agility venues.  (And should have gone to a 3rd one but didn't.)  There are 2 aspects for the competitors: A) All the best that qualified (& that could afford to) competed.  So the winners were the best of the best that year (of those who could afford to come)!  B) Others come because they want to measure their skills and teamwork against the best teams that could come.  They want to see the top teams take on the course challenges and beat the course.  You make new friends and some of those you only get to be with at this competition.

For this level of competition, unless the organization can fill with the first group or have other activities at the same time that carry some of the cost, you need both groups.  I was in group B in another venue for my first event and really enjoyed it.  Many of us wanted just to earn that Q and ribbon at that event.  I did have a dog in the finals once ... and we came in second.  I know just where on course I ran out of oxygen.  I had a dog in the second chance entries in CHAMPS 2009 and it was a wonderful experience.  I ran 2 dogs in CHAMPS 2017, one is Elite, one in pre-elite.  The one in pre-elite requires lots of work on distance.  He is quick to tell if I am disappointed; I must be very careful to step in if he does not understand what I am asking/directing him to do.  So, pre-elite was the best choice for him under the rules at the time.  My other dog was definitely in Elite ... and in a sense we basically helped make up the numbers for placements.  Buddy not only Q's in each pre-elite run, he was in the placements each run but never with the speed to be in the top 3 or 4. 

So, take the qualifications for CHAMPS next year and see what is best for your dogs to run.  I will be doing my very best to get those 4 Open/Elite Chances Qs for Buddy.  Walker might get enough Open Regular Q's to be in Pre-Elite.  If Bella is feeling good again, she'll come too.  And I might need to get in good enough shape (or get enough distance on the pack) to run 6 longer runs each day.  And it will be immense fun and joy.

Janice Shavor
Bella, Buddy, & Walker

Marsha01

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #72 on: November 26, 2018, 05:11:58 PM »
Chris I think that is a great fix.  100 cumulative points in the elite classes with jumps and you should be in elite at champs. :) 

Karin Bell

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #73 on: November 27, 2018, 09:53:13 AM »
Hi,

I have a question about Regionals as the date to put your name in the Hat is coming up fast...  Since it appears that the location will be determined by a Random Draw, will the drawing be by geographic location?  East, West and Central?  That would seem to be a fair way to spread out the event rather than lumping all clubs into one hat with the chance of one region 'winning' out over the others.

"Regional draw entries will open on December first, and the random draw will be a live feed done on December 22nd"

And when we do Put our Name in The HAT, are we supposed to also include the date we would like to be considered for the event?  A lot of clubs offer multiple trials so that is why I ask.

Thanks!
Karin Bell
Auburn, CA
In the Heart of California's Gold Country

Linda W. Anderson

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Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #74 on: November 28, 2018, 06:14:24 AM »
At this point, is the plan to move the Champs dates to the beginning of October for the future? 
Linda
Linda W. Anderson - Dogs have only one fault, their lives are too short!