Author Topic: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program  (Read 4078 times)

Vicki Storrs

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2018, 10:08:01 AM »
Please consider dividing the pre-champs group into a standard and veterans or double digit class. It is the largest class and it is not the NADAC normal to have no separation for the older dogs.
I have a sneaky suspicion this post was referring to pre-elite and NOT pre-Champs. Chris answered it as it was written, for pre-Champs. Scdogoic were you actually talking about pre-elite?
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Kyle

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2018, 12:27:51 PM »
About Stakes....

Being able to remember running Stakes when there was just one level, just one line, we got points by each obstacle we got and we all had to try it that way, I have my thoughts and opinions...  ;)

I can see what Lisa is saying and can understand her point of view. Please correct me if I have misunderstood: she feels the need to be able to achieve multiple bonus runs in a row at various trials in order to feel that she and her dog are prepared to run in whatever level she feels comfortable. Well, I can certainly understand that point of view. I'd like to be able to do that too. Buuuuut.... ;) There's a huge difference in the distances in a regular trial vs. Starter or even Silver Stakes. Major, massive differences. Getting a Bonus in any weekend trial in Regular is much farther in distance (and difficulty) than any Starter Stakes line or even a Silver Stakes line. So, getting Bonuses regularly, even a few in a row at weekend trials and then entering Starter Stakes really shouldn't be a stretch. It's only a small stretch (maybe) for Silver Stakes. Especially for someone like Lisa, who trains and works her dogs diligently and who can handle so well.

Staying connected to our dogs is always an option simply due to the fact that the Stakes courses are divided into sections with possible points. We can always choose to move out of our "designated" area to help our dog if losing connection may be an issue. By moving back to our "designated" space we can continue to get bonus points. (IOW, all is not lost.) That's a handler's choice and depends on how their dog is running at the moment or our knowledge of our dogs' strengths or weaknesses. Not every course is going to be "our" kind of course and they shouldn't be. The point of Championships is to challenge ourselves (and our dogs) in order to test us. It shouldn't be easy or a "given". Choosing to cross the line to help our dog, or keep "connection" makes us the better handler. Does that mean you shouldn't be in whatever class you qualified for? No. You did qualify for it, you deserve to be there, you have just chosen to lose a few points for the betterment of your team. You can still show off the amazing things your team can do in other sections of the course.

There's also an issue of number of trials available in different areas in order to try to qualify. For instance, the number of trials in my area (Southern CA) are dwindling. Increasing the number of Bonuses required might actually decrease interest in the program since the opportunities are vanishing.

There is a drawback, that I can see, to requiring entering the class you qualified for....this is on a completely personal level (like Lisa's). The DRI requirement for Super Stakes. My dogs will probably *never* get DRIs over 100 along with a Bonus. It's just our style of running (such as stopped contacts) and my 2 previous dogs just simply weren't that fast.  :( Were they Super Stakes distance/difficulty contenders - in my opinion, yes. Would I have entered Super Stakes - absolutely. I guess I kind of wish there were something like a Silver Stakes "B" class. For dogs who have either run in Silver Stakes more than once or who have won it but just don't make it into Super Stakes due to the DRI. It might just seem nicer (read: fairer) to not have them competing against first time Silver Stakes folks. It could even be done for the Starter Stakes - for those dogs who have competed in Starter Stakes previously but didn't make it into Silver. That's just a personal thought that the "powers that be" might consider...  ;D

I would like to thank the folks at NADAC in giving out placement ribbons for Stakes. When we didn't get them and we didn't have decent runs, it was kind of depressing to go home with *nothing*. So, many thanks for your generosity.  :) The Bonus Cups are a true gift! Many thanks for those beautiful trophies.

-Kyle

Kyle
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Foomin Z

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2018, 04:57:36 PM »

In any event, any changes should happen for 2020 not 2019.  We have been running for  almost 4 months now under the assumption that the qualifications would be the same as this year which has been stated many times. I do not think it is fair to change qualification rules after the year has begun.
This happened during the qualification period for the 2017 champs as well. Small dogs suddenly got a lot more course time to qualify in runs... halfway through the qualification period. I know NADAC wants to slim down rule change periods to once or twice per year, but ANY rules that affect qualifying for champs should only take effect at the beginning of the qualification period for champs, not the beginning of the calendar year.

It might be a pain in the butt for the home office to think about champs two years ahead of time, but that makes it helpful for champs entrants to plan things too.

Chris Nelson

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2018, 09:36:32 AM »
No stakes discussion from me!

But re the two rings:  I haven't been to the Ohio site, but am wondering if it's going to be anything like the Gillette set-up, where the two rings are pretty close together (even with all the equipment/scoring/etc. in-between), and therefore courses will be pretty similar (starting and finishing with hoop/contact).  I totally understand the reasoning behind doing it this way this year, but hope that the space available will allow a bit more variation in courses.  I actually liked the "specialty" courses (more jumps, or more weaves, etc.) in the past, and I think for a Championship event the ability to excel in a variety of types of courses is important.

Just my two cents' worth,
diane

For 2019 we'll be putting up a solid 8 or 10 foot wall between the rings.  There isn't enough room to have our scoring area inside the rings like we did this year, so we'll need a pretty solid wall to separate the rings.

And yes because it will be a solid wall we can switch up the course designs a bit :)

Worth noting that the reasons we didn't have focus rounds this year was really more because of the world competition.
We don't like to throw out focus rounds on the first or last days, and the Friday and Saturday this year were the world competition, which also doesn't work to have focus rounds because it's just a regular trial weekend for the rest of the world, so having a course with 4 contacts or 4 weave entrances on a regular course is a bit much.

We're working on that too though, cause the focus rounds are nice to have.   We just might not have a bunch of them like we have in past years :)

Chris Nelson

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2018, 09:39:07 AM »
Please consider dividing the pre-champs group into a standard and veterans or double digit class. It is the largest class and it is not the NADAC normal to have no separation for the older dogs.
I have a sneaky suspicion this post was referring to pre-elite and NOT pre-Champs. Chris answered it as it was written, for pre-Champs. Scdogoic were you actually talking about pre-elite?
Vicki
If the question is in regards to Pre-Elite it gets a little tricky.

I understand not all dogs progress at the same speed, but pre-elite really is supposed to be just an introduction to Champs for young dogs.   I would hate to shift so much focus onto a division that isn't supposed to be the highlight of the event.

We can definitely look into splitting divisions, as I agree the classes are pretty large.   But I really don't like it in my gut, but that hasn't stopped us from changing things in the past so who knows :)

Chris Nelson

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2018, 09:41:44 AM »
Okay so in regards to all the bonus stuff.

It is what it is and won't be changing for this year.

There are some changes planned that will be announced in January to go into effect on August 1st for the 2020 qualifying year and it will quite honestly make this entire conversation outdated.

It's also worth noting that NO info has been posted about qualifications for 2019.   The only thing that has been said consistently is that Intro won't count towards qualifications, and there will be some adjustments to the bonus qualifications.  So we actually can change things if we want since no premium has been put out.     

KarissaKS

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2018, 10:29:18 AM »

I understand not all dogs progress at the same speed, but pre-elite really is supposed to be just an introduction to Champs for young dogs.   I would hate to shift so much focus onto a division that isn't supposed to be the highlight of the event.


Based on the last two years, it almost seems that the Pre-Elite division is on trend to eclipse the regular (Elite) Champs entrants. It would be nice to maybe see a cap put on this, or to change the requirements to encourage more people to enter the regular division. You can qualify for the regular division of Champs with all Open Qs, so allowing folks to have up to 100 points in Elite Regular (and an unlimited number of Elite points in other classes) and still enter Pre-Elite seems a bit wrong.

Perhaps the Pre-Elite entry requirements should be geared more towards dogs who aren't in Elite yet, and find a way to encourage people to enter the regular division if they are so qualified. There is definitely a bit of cross-over in the requirements right now and I'm sure it leaves many people wondering which division they should enter. It might be helpful to draw a line and say, "If you meet these requirements you are in Elite" (that includes getting the requisite number of qualifiers from Open). People should be striving to qualify for Champs, not sandbagging and making the choice to move back down to Open Regular so that they don't go over 100 Elite Regular points.
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Rosemary

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2018, 11:11:49 AM »



Perhaps the Pre-Elite entry requirements should be geared more towards dogs who aren't in Elite yet, and find a way to encourage people to enter the regular division if they are so qualified. There is definitely a bit of cross-over in the requirements right now and I'm sure it leaves many people wondering which division they should enter. It might be helpful to draw a line and say, "If you meet these requirements you are in Elite" (that includes getting the requisite number of qualifiers from Open). People should be striving to qualify for Champs, not sandbagging and making the choice to move back down to Open Regular so that they don't go over 100 Elite Regular points.

I agree with this.  Having said that, there is that no mans land in between where a team strives to qualify for champs and misses either the jumpers or chances qualification by just 10 points.  That team is then not able to compete in either group.  I'm sure those teams would even prefer to run elite at trials, but doesn't want to completely disqualify themselves from being able to participate at all.

In the end, there will be something that someone doesn't like.  I think the powers that be do their best to make the event fun and fair and  expect the teams entering to do the right thing.

Amy McGovern

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2018, 11:40:50 AM »
I was going to post about that no-mans-land also.  For me the issue is chances.  My dog isn't ready for open chances yet but she's in elite in all the games and open in regular (while we could move up as we have the title, I'm staying back trying to work on her focus).  Truthfully I'd love to move up to elite when I feel like her focus has improved.  But she really isn't ready for open chances so if I move up to elite regular, I put myself in that zone where I can't enter anything :(  We originally wanted to go for that new award that Chris announced in a video that requires 200 novice chances points and 230 elite regular but that award specifically means a dog can't go to champs.

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KarissaKS

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2018, 12:11:26 PM »
Seeing as the distance component wasn't even a requirement at Champs this year (it was only factored in as "bonus" points), one could wonder if Chances even needs to be part of the qualifying requirements? Or say two (*edited to say oops, it's 4 now) Chances Qs at any level (other than Intro)?
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Amy McGovern

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2018, 12:15:27 PM »
Yeah I was wondering that too.  I could handle aiming for 4 novice Qs!  And it could cut out the no-man's-land.  And if we achieve that superior novice title in chances, I will move to open chances.  But right now, she isn't ready for open-sized distance.  Spends too much time telling me off about what SHE thinks she needs to do :-P (we are working on that!)

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Chris Nelson

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2018, 12:23:58 PM »
Good thoughts on pre elite versus elite.

I think we could definitely take a harder look at the qualifications for 2020 after getting some feedback from everyone over the next year


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cheyaut

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2018, 12:51:10 AM »
One of my dogs is now stuck in no mans land, too, because of chances. I took her this year, pre elite, and had a lot of fun (and she placed in several rounds). But now she's moved to elite in regular, so no more champs for her. Distance is NOT her thing, and while we are getting SOME, it's not enough for even most novice chances courses, and that's ok with me. She prefers me close, and I prefer to run happy dogs, so I allow her preference. I'm ok knowing she can't go to Champs anymore, and I'm glad she got to this year :)
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Marcy Matties

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2018, 05:21:36 AM »
One of my dogs is now stuck in no mans land, too, because of chances. I took her this year, pre elite, and had a lot of fun (and she placed in several rounds). But now she's moved to elite in regular, so no more champs for her. Distance is NOT her thing, and while we are getting SOME, it's not enough for even most novice chances courses, and that's ok with me. She prefers me close, and I prefer to run happy dogs, so I allow her preference. I'm ok knowing she can't go to Champs anymore, and I'm glad she got to this year :)

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Re: Updates for 2019 Champs, Regionals and the trainers program
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2018, 08:02:38 AM »

I understand not all dogs progress at the same speed, but pre-elite really is supposed to be just an introduction to Champs for young dogs.   I would hate to shift so much focus onto a division that isn't supposed to be the highlight of the event.


Based on the last two years, it almost seems that the Pre-Elite division is on trend to eclipse the regular (Elite) Champs entrants. It would be nice to maybe see a cap put on this, or to change the requirements to encourage more people to enter the regular division. You can qualify for the regular division of Champs with all Open Qs, so allowing folks to have up to 100 points in Elite Regular (and an unlimited number of Elite points in other classes) and still enter Pre-Elite seems a bit wrong.

Perhaps the Pre-Elite entry requirements should be geared more towards dogs who aren't in Elite yet, and find a way to encourage people to enter the regular division if they are so qualified. There is definitely a bit of cross-over in the requirements right now and I'm sure it leaves many people wondering which division they should enter. It might be helpful to draw a line and say, "If you meet these requirements you are in Elite" (that includes getting the requisite number of qualifiers from Open). People should be striving to qualify for Champs, not sandbagging and making the choice to move back down to Open Regular so that they don't go over 100 Elite Regular points.

I do get this, but I also have a 3 year old dog that is still in Novice at this point, but is close to finishing up her Novice superior title.  The is NO way that she would be ready for the elite level at Champs with her current demeanor.  She is a good jumpers and weavers dog and is now in open in those and her distance is awesome when we are clicking, but again, her brain isn't where it needs to be a lot of the time and putting her in an elite level at champs probably wouldn't be good for her.  At least that is my thinking at this time.  It may change come August as that is 9 months away and maybe she will mature in that time. 

On the other hand, I do agree with the chances discussion, especially if we are going to start allowing people from other organizations start at the elite level in other games. They may have good dogs that just can't do the distance and it may deter them from competing if they can't go to Nationals.
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