January 2019 Announcement Video

[dogrsqr]

Very well said Cindy!!!!! I agree with everything you said. 

If someone with an Excellent FAST title can enter elite Chances someone with an Elite Chances title should be able to enter Elite Gamblers. 

[rondadillard]

re. Grandfathering into the Gambler class from Chances question - The piece people are missing is the timing element in the new Gamblers class. While titles in Chances means you have the distance skills in a set sequence, classes like AKC's FAST and USDAA's Gamblers require you to plan your own course in a specific amount of time. The timing element, along with designing a course best for YOUR dog, are skills not tested in Chances.

[Chris Nelson]

We’ll discuss it.

We can even put it to a vote.

It is not even close, or in the same ballpark of a test of skills comparable to elite chances.   

But as you’ve said,  if people want to fail because of a perceived issue of someone else who has practiced those skills being more welcomed then that’s their choice.   It can be a vote.


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[Chris Nelson]

Also as a side note. 

These changes have nothing to do with bringing in other venue people.  If it does,  cool.

But that is not the intended goal for any changes we make.   We have goals for nadac and we’re making changes to reach them.   But it has nothing to do with other venues.

/rant


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[dogrsqr]

Just because I only trial in NADAC doesn’t mean we don’t run those games in class.  My dogs also perform a teeter in class. 

Someone with an Excellent FAST title likely doesn’t have the distance skills required for Elite Chances either. 

[Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility]

Barking dogs and tugging are two entirely different things.      Dogs bark.....and no matter how much some people try to train that out of them...they cant. They are dogs and they bark.   Tugging in an entirely elective activity.     People are choosing to tug with their dogs.    So these are not comparable issues.


 It is much easier to type on the forum than on facebook ..so I have some questions:

TUGGING:
1-Is tugging allowed when a dog enters the ring ?  So can a dog tug on the start-line while another dog in running?

2-So we are allowed to have a toy attached to the leash, correct?  So I can attach my holee roller to the end of the leash?  How is NADAC defining an acceptable toy?

3-Is it now allowed for a dog to target the leash??  I assume this will happen regardless, because If I am the leash runner, I dont want to be handing a leash with a toy attached to it to the handler so it is going on the ground.

4- I hope we are going to loosen up the dog has to be in the ring while the other dog is running to allow teams that are uncomfortable with dogs tugging and playing with toys in the ring more time to come into the ring.  which will add hours to the day..but I am fine with that.    If people are getting different options to end their runs, then people should have option to be wait to enter the ring the start their run.    It is more important for me to be connected when I walk in the ring and start my run than for me to be able to instantaneously reward my dog in the ring. My dogs totally understand that in a few seconds as I walk outside the ring, they will be rewarded with food that is coming out of my pocket.


Regarding Gamblers-
I am pretty damn confident in my ability and frankly most of my NADAC only friends to be able to handle an Elite Gamblers course even though I/we have not done it in 15 years.   If you are going grandfather other classes in, then to be fair, Chances should count as well.   If we have our Elite Chances title then we can go in Elite Gamblers.    If we suck, we can always go back down

BTW, I like the option of adding Gamblers as an option for All Around NATCH. That seems like a win win for everyone.  For those that dont like or dont want to do hoopers and barrelers, they can do Gamblers. For those of us that LOVE barriers and Hoopers, then we have that option as well.


 

[Maureen deHaan]

Again - I have to agree with Lisa RE: Gamblers - I really don't understand WHY if I have a gazillion chances points   or at least a NATCH - I have to start over in Gamblers - seems a bit inequitable to say the lease

RE: barking dogs - there is barking and then there is BARKING - stress / overstimulated / loud scary  barking is a lot different than barking for joy - Chris, I understand where you are coming from re barking - bc I also think it is rude when people allow their dog (big or small) to stand behind the ring or in the chute or in their crate / expen ringside and bark at their backs /sides, fronts or their movement -

A dog barking repeatedly in a demanding / aggressive / stressed way is sending way too much unbalanced energy - whether it be in the ring , near the ring or in a crate in the trial area and it should be discouraged.

There is tugging and there is TUGGING - a dog hanging on to its leash and pulling quietly while the handler is being passive is a lot less distracting(?) that a team playing a big game of high movement / growly / intense tug -

I guess there are extremes - and who is the judge on that? everyone has their own comfort levels - which is why I don't think it should be allowed - and then if people are already talking about not entering the ring - well that's a training issue then - it just gets very complicated

I understand it is probationary - but I still wish you'd let the club decide if they want to allow it or not

Thanks for listening

[Chris Nelson]

I guess I am a little worn out guys.

This happens every single time a rule changes.  Every freaks out, then the rule takes place, and life goes on.

Everyone was upset about X-Hoopers going away.   Yet it's okay now.
People were upset about the start line training rules, yet that worked out great.
People were upset about the contact update, yet that worked out.
People were upset about every rule change that ever happens.   

I really wish folks would at the very least give this a shot, before completely shutting it down in their heads.
I am taking a step back from this for awhile.   

[dogrsqr]

Chris I have lots more questions but already decided to cut you a break.  I’m sure this is tough for you but pleae understand it’s also tough for those of us who have been relatively NADAC exclusive for 20 years.  If at some point you feel up to it and would like to share your general overall vision for change I would be interested in hearing what it is.

From a personal perspective as a person who was in charge of roadway projects that affected people on a very personal level, this is equivalent to the first open house meeting when people find out what the plan is.  It’s never easy.  People need time to vent and really just want to feel like they’re being heard and their concerns are being considered.  It eventually works out and some people sell their house and leave.  Some people stick around even though they are not 100% happy with the end result i.e.  I’m still not happy about Hoopers going away so I choose not to enter hoopers.

Get some rest.

[Linda W. Anderson]

I've been following ALL the posts on this thread and agree with "dogrsqr" that people want to know they are being listened to.  Chris, you are correct that every time a change is made people get upset.   

"Everyone was upset about X-Hoopers going away.   Yet it's okay now."

Personally, I liked X-Hoopers and much preferred the gates to the current Hoopers class, but I kept entering the class because "I" wanted an All Around NATCH.  It's still not okay with me.

"People were upset about the start line training rules, yet that worked out great.
People were upset about the contact update, yet that worked out.
People were upset about every rule change that ever happens."

These are rule changes that help teams, not penalize them. 

Re: Tugging - this "may" help some teams but it will definitely hurt others.  As Lisa said, it is not a natural behavior for dogs.  As a trial chair, anything that adds time to the trial day will affect how many/which classes we will offer, not to mention the possible liability for dog on dog/people issues.

Re:  Gamblers - I've been competing in NADAC since 2001 and ran the "old" Gamblers until it was changed to Chances.  I feel completely confident I could compete in Elite Gamblers with my 2 current Elite Chances dogs.  I don't think it is fair that I should have to go back to Novice with these dogs.  It remains to be seen if I will even enter Gamblers.  I'm in the same boat as Becky AH with a limited amount of funds to spend at any given trial.

Bottom line - I will continue to compete in NADAC because I love almost everything about NADAC!!
Thanks for allowing this discussion to continue. 
Linda 

[BeckyAH]

Having read more discussion and remarks from Chris re: tugging, I am personally less concerned.  I think what he is envisioning is that things run normally entering the ring, and running the course.  Then the dog is allowed to get the toy on the leash or the end of the leash, while they have the leash put on, and there is some tension on the leash as the dog leaves the ring.  No tugging within 10 feet of another dog means that there is still a buffer outside of the ring, and the dogs are in and out pretty fast.

I absolutely agree this should still be a problem, and  I own one of the dogs it could be a problem for -  but there's still only one dog off leash at a time and the dog leaving isn't hanging out in the ring so while I think it might well impact my runs, I don't think it's going to result in dangerous altercations.  I also think she'll get used to it and that if it runs well it won't be a particularly big deal for most.   I also think most people probably aren't even going to bother with runs and, once realizing who is tugging, run order changes are likely to happen to help accommodate dogs who really don't do well with it and overall it'll be ok.  I do realize this relies on competitors, judges, ring crew, being cooperative and maybe some more strict management of the exit gate (ie: FFS STOP HANGING OUT THERE TO TALK) and that it will be easier to have go well at some locations than others.

I do empathize both with the hatred of change (I don't like it, almost ever, it stresses me out and scares me) and being tired with people freaking out. 

I'm not telling anyone what to do, but I am going to take some time, some deep breaths, quell my anxiety and see how this plays out come June.   I *think* I understand what Chris is trying to do with all these changes, and overall that's an admirable thing.  We'll see how it goes and then get a chance to vote on it.

(Though Chris? Stepping away is good.  Sometimes people just need to flail around and hash things out in their heads and maybe even complain for a while.  It's ok.  It doesn't mean you're bad or we're mad at you.  In most cases it's just a way of dealing, so stepping away and letting people is smart. )

[Foomin Z]

It had not occurred to me that dogs would target the leash when finishing the run. I have seen it at other organizations though. Perhaps the leash runner handing the leash to the handler should be the exception instead of the rule, if tugging is going to be allowed in the ring. That is, the leash should always be placed on a chair or the ground instead of being held by the leash runner. It seems like the leash runner holding it at the end of the course may be at risk.

[Chris Nelson]

It had not occurred to me that dogs would target the leash when finishing the run. I have seen it at other organizations though. Perhaps the leash runner handing the leash to the handler should be the exception instead of the rule, if tugging is going to be allowed in the ring. That is, the leash should always be placed on a chair or the ground instead of being held by the leash runner. It seems like the leash runner holding it at the end of the course may be at risk.

That would be the handler needing to tell the leash runner to drop the leash.

If the dog jumps on the leash runner that is an elimination as always.

So if someone wants to tug they just say drop my leash please.


The majority of people still won’t be tugging,  so that will make it easier for everyone.

I’m also a big pusher or having a chair with a bucket at the last obstacle that the leash gets put into,  but that’s just me.


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[Amanda Nelson]

So what about people who are screaming and whooping at the end of the run while the dog is jumping in the air?
That is an elective behavior. 

Or someone who is whipping their dogs behind their legs and doing heeling patterns? That is elective, and I have a couple of students dogs who have issues with that.

On a personal level, my dog has an issue with dogs who finish and jump into their owners arms, she thinks this looks like lots of fun and I lose her at the start line when the team before me does it. But that is also an elective action. 

I am ranting a bit and I am sure this will come off wrong. :-)

But Chris and myself have said MULTIPLE times, tugging can only happen with all four feet on the ground, and it MUST be polite. So if someone is yelling and flinging their dog through the air, they will be talked to.

Can we make everyone happy? No we cannot. But this is something we have gotten emails about for YEARS and we decided to try it as a probationary test run and I personally feel it is getting blown way out of proportion.

Amanda

Barking dogs and tugging are two entirely different things.      Dogs bark.....and no matter how much some people try to train that out of them...they cant. They are dogs and they bark.   Tugging in an entirely elective activity.     People are choosing to tug with their dogs.    So these are not comparable issues.





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[Amy McGovern]

I think it will be fun.  My dog loves to tug and her leash is designed to tug (we bought it from a wonderful vendor named rush to tug).  I always have to work on a firm DROP IT when she tries to grab it at the end of the run.  My solution has been to carry her out of the ring as that way she can't tug.  I think this will relieve a lot of stress at the end of the run for me (and for her since she loves tugging).  I'm all for trying it and seeing how it works.

p.s. I'm excited about all the new rules.  Gamblers was my husband's favorite class to run with his dog.  I told him it was coming back and he lit up.  Maybe he will run again!  He stopped when his dog died and only runs my dogs if I'm sick but I bet this gets him to try running my dogs in that class!