Author Topic: Tugging Example Video  (Read 889 times)

Chris Nelson

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Tugging Example Video
« on: February 13, 2019, 10:15:54 AM »

Tammy Lenski

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Re: Tugging Example Video
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2019, 05:20:36 PM »
Thanks for the video, Chris. It helped allay some of my fears around "wild" tugging as dogs exit. Seeing "the pictures in your head" helps my understanding of NADAC's thinking about this and what I might expect to see come June.

I know it must be wearying to navigate the strong opinions on issues like this, but I'm glad you do -- it means a lot to have a voice in an organization we love and want to be around for a long time. I'm a believer in decisions that get hashed over like this being, over the long run, more measured, thoughtful decisions as a result of all the hashing. It also means a lot to me that you care enough about our voices that you're not just handing down a decision, but considering it a "probationary" idea that we can test out and then vote on. That's pretty awesome.
Tammy, Missy & Chica
Peterborough, NH

Re: Tugging Example Video
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2019, 10:27:50 PM »
Thanks for making this video.  A picture (and video) is worth a thousand words. I do not have any objections to tugging in the ring now. It certainly should become clear to all what the rule involves.

Thanks again.
Sheila & the Shelties

Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility

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Re: Tugging Example Video
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2019, 04:11:08 AM »
Thanks for the video.  Perhaps in the future, videos like this could be made when changes are announced. It is much easier to SEE what you are saying that just listen to the words and leave it to my wild imagination :)

Anyway, I have  questions... it is allowed for dogs to pick up the leash now (and later). 
What are the parameters of targeting of the leash?
Will there be rules in place about WHERE to put the leash on the ground? 
What happens if the leash runner places the leash off to the side and the dog misses last obstacle and grabs the leash? I assume this is a 20 fault and the handler is not allowed to send dog through last obstacle...but I think this needs to be addresses officially as I can totally see this happening at a trial.
Are handlers allowed to say "GET IT" or "Get your leash" in June (as I thought this was not allowed now..but I could be wrong)???
thanks

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Maureen deHaan

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Re: Tugging Example Video
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2019, 04:39:54 AM »
Thanks Chris - makes it very clear -thanks for taking the time to do the video :)
Maureen, Kiva & Zoe
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KarissaKS

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Re: Tugging Example Video
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2019, 05:46:11 AM »
What happens if the leash runner places the leash off to the side and the dog misses last obstacle and grabs the leash? I assume this is a 20 fault and the handler is not allowed to send dog through last obstacle...but I think this needs to be addresses officially as I can totally see this happening at a trial.

Honestly, this is a risk a handler takes when they have a dog that goes to the leash (I'm not going to use the work "target" because it is not a trained behavior for my dogs, they just do it). Last year we ran a course that took us past the finish hoop halfway through and the leash runner had already dropped Jedi's leash (as asked) -- so when he came off the dog walk and saw his harness laying there on the ground he ran straight to it. That's a training issue. I would like it if leash runners didn't drop the leash until after a dog had gone past the finish in a situation like that, but it is what it is. We've also lost Q's in AKC because there have been several course designs that bring the dog past the gate for the last obstacle(s) and my dog veers over to the leash and gets an R. I obviously need to handle better in those areas. But in short, if a handler has a dog who associates their leash with play/tug/fun/whatever then it's our responsibility to make sure the dog understands when work is finished and they can get their leash.

I do think a pre-placed bucket or chair would greatly help in the scenario you describe, where a leash runner may inadvertently place it "too far" off to the side. But if a dog runs past the last obstacle and grabs their leash I would expect a fault for that behavior.
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Chris Nelson

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Re: Tugging Example Video
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2019, 06:19:19 AM »
Iím only on my phone for now,  so Iíll write a more detailed response later.

But I really donít want to see targeting become a prominent behavior,  that would be a negative effect of this rule change that will need to be addressed.

I am personally a fan of using either a bucket on the ground, or even better a bucket on a chair.

If itís on a chair the dog at least canít grab it easily, and a added bonus is that leash runners are then required to put it in the same place.

As a judge itís sometimes hard to reprimand a volunteer for leaving the leash 40í away from the last obstacle,  or leaving it 1í in front of the last obstacle,    With a chair/ bucket scenario the judge can pick exactly where they want the leash placed,  which is a good thing for us to keep the trial moving


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dogrsqr

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Re: Tugging Example Video
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2019, 08:06:57 AM »
So as far as leash running has it been decided that the leash runner will no longer be handing the leash to the handler?  Or is that still being decided and should remain the same until June?

Thanks,

Gina

Chris Nelson

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Re: Tugging Example Video
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2019, 08:44:06 AM »
Leash runners can still hand the leash off.   Same rules as always for the dog interacting with ring crew being an E


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Jeannie Biggers

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Re: Tugging Example Video
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2019, 08:46:35 AM »
I believe that targeting is a training thing.... and I believe it should not be allowed.  My dogs like to get their leashes for me and I don't want to take the chance of them missing the last obstacle because a leash runner set it off to the side.  In which it is NOT their fault if they do and my dog does that!!  I do use targeting while training, but it is a trained behavior and they only get to "go get it" when told.  I actually proof this by having targets in my practice ring.  I have many many holee rollers just laying around :) 

Also I don't want my dogs going and "taking" their leash from the leash runner if they are still holding it.  That is just rude :) 

That being said, I do have my dogs finish the last obstacle and IF my leash is NOT in the hands of the leash runner and laying on the ground.... I will tell my dogs to "Get your Leash".  Two of them really enjoy this process and I have made it their end behavior.  They don't HAVE to do this, they just enjoy it.  And honestly, I enjoy them engaging with me and bringing me the leash as I don't have to go find it or get to it.  I can get my dog that brings me her leash out of the ring faster than the one that doesn't.

I think that it should still be the default that the leash runner takes/hands the leash to the handler UNLESS asked differently.  It really does help lots of people leash their dogs faster, and it helps those that need to really stay engaged with their dog.  They don't have to disconnect to go "find" their leash, even on a bucket they still look for it.  I really hope this part does not change. 
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Re: Tugging Example Video
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2019, 01:05:10 PM »

Are handlers allowed to say "GET IT" or "Get your leash" in June (as I thought this was not allowed now..but I could be wrong)???
thanks

To Lisa's point, I would think that if the handler uses something like that, it would be similar to someone with food in their pocket tapping their pocket so their dog knows the treats are there at the end.  I understand the tugging in the video, but being able to target their leash is a whole different scenario.  Although, truthfully, you could train your dog another word to target their leash.  I would almost think it be required to have the leash in a bucket or something similar to avoid the targeting of the leash.
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Amy McGovern

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Re: Tugging Example Video
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2019, 01:39:24 PM »
What is wrong with giving the dog a job at the end of run?  Why must we attack anything that our dogs don't need as suddenly not allowed for anyone else?  I'm really quite puzzled by this.
Amy and the schnauzers

BeckyAH

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Re: Tugging Example Video
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2019, 01:54:54 PM »
I could really easily say "TREAT TIME" to my food driven dog at the last obstacle or so and have them run faster to get to it sooner.  That's not the same as half way using the food to lure the dog through the course.  The dog knows the food is in my pocket.  The dog knows the leash is beyond the last obstacle.  Running to and grabbing it after the course is completed - or being eliminated if they do it mid run - is not a thing I see as some kind of advantage, issue, or cheat.   It just gets something in the dog's mouth earlier after they're done - and, unlike food, won't leave crumbs :P  (And Chris has already said he'd be okay with treats coming out then, if th ere was a way to be sure nothing would be left behind)

dogrsqr

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Re: Tugging Example Video
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2019, 06:23:57 PM »
Amy i don't think anyone is against letting the dog get the leash at the end of the run.  Lisa was asking about using the leash for a target..  Say at the end of a ju mpers run there is usually a bit of a multipmultiple ump straight line so if the leash is left on the ground at the end of that line the handle could say go get your leash 3 jumps back using the leash as a target (read training aid).  This is different than finishing the run without z target and then sending your dog to get the leash.

Gina Pizzo

Re: Tugging Example Video
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2019, 08:47:22 PM »
Oh, no.  I thought we would wait and see what happens and comment on it then.

I don't think the leash runner should be expect to had the leash to the handler if tugging is allowed.  I can see the dog targeting a leash that the runner is holding, or attempting tug with the leash runner and that could cause problems. But I will wait and see.
Sheila & the Shelties