Author Topic: rules clarification  (Read 2015 times)

Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility

  • Trial Secretary
  • *****
  • Posts: 366
    • In The Zone Agility
rules clarification
« on: January 18, 2020, 04:39:25 PM »
Would you please clarify the rules in the following scenarios?

1-While running the course, the handler asks their dog to wait,  sit or down.   The handler moves away from dog and then continues their run.  Is this OK or is this an elimination for training?

2- Handler says dog's name is a somewhat gruff voice ( you know...when your dog is going off course and you call ok maybe even yell their name).    Is this cause for elimination?

Thanks
Lisa


Be Well & Happy
In The Zone Agility
www.inthezoneagility.com
Agility and Conditioning Seminars/Online Training Classes

Sarah Fix

  • Judge
  • *****
  • Posts: 164
Re: rules clarification
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2020, 06:29:54 PM »
1-While running the course, the handler asks their dog to wait, sit or down.   The handler moves away from dog and then continues their run.  Is this OK or is this an elimination for training?

According to the rulebook: 
A handler may down/sit/stop a dog to regain a handling position on the course or to redirect the dog to a new direction. But if the judge feels the dog was put into a sit, down, or stay because the dog was out of control in the ring, they shall be eliminated

2- Handler says dog's name is a somewhat gruff voice ( you know...when your dog is going off course and you call ok maybe even yell their name).    Is this cause for elimination?

While it is possible, it would have to be pretty extreme.  "Somewhat gruff" happens rather frequently and I wouldn't think a handler would get more than a caution for that.  If it's bad enough to make me cringe and shocks folks around the ring, then as a judge, I would be talking to the exhibitor with elimination and removal from the trial being a definite possibility.

According to the Rulebook:
The handler can use verbal or visual commands to assist the dog throughout the course. All commands must be given in a sportsmanlike manner,or they shall be faulted. The judge shall assess the faults to be equivalent to the degree of the offense, from a twenty (20) fault penalty to elimination. Displays of anger, foul language, or excessive harshness shall always be faulted. 
Any handler eliminated from the ring for poor sportsmanship shall be excused for the remainder of the trial and a written report shall be sent to the NADAC office.
Sarah Fix
Breeze,Razz,Boogie & Jinks

Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility

  • Trial Secretary
  • *****
  • Posts: 366
    • In The Zone Agility
Re: rules clarification
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2020, 04:56:14 AM »
HA Sarah, I did read the  rulebook :)   but it is unclear....

 I understand the out of control and redirecting is a judgement call, and I am fine with that.
My question is, can the handler move away from the dog again once they are asked to wait, down or sit.

Example- my dog is heading towards the wrong obstacle,  I tell them to wait and then I move to another location, release and move on with the course.    Is this an E?

Another example:  my dog is coming towards me and not the obstacle..but is also barking.  i tell him to sit; dog sits and I move away from the dog to get in a better position, release and continue with the course.  Is this an E?

What if the dog is coming towards me and spinning? Is this out of control??? 

I recently had this discussion with a few judges and got different answers....so would like to know the official ruling.
Be Well & Happy
In The Zone Agility
www.inthezoneagility.com
Agility and Conditioning Seminars/Online Training Classes

BeckyAH

  • **
  • Posts: 192
Re: rules clarification
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2020, 04:55:13 AM »
HA Sarah, I did read the  rulebook :)   but it is unclear....

 I understand the out of control and redirecting is a judgement call, and I am fine with that.
My question is, can the handler move away from the dog again once they are asked to wait, down or sit.

Example- my dog is heading towards the wrong obstacle,  I tell them to wait and then I move to another location, release and move on with the course.    Is this an E?

Another example:  my dog is coming towards me and not the obstacle..but is also barking.  i tell him to sit; dog sits and I move away from the dog to get in a better position, release and continue with the course.  Is this an E?

What if the dog is coming towards me and spinning? Is this out of control??? 

I recently had this discussion with a few judges and got different answers....so would like to know the official ruling.

I talked to Chris about moving waits at some point and I believe, even with the moving away, that counts.  As it's 'regaining a handling position'.   I HAVE, though rarely, asked my dog to stop, and moved myself to a position when I was way out.  I'm sure it's always going to be judgement (is the dog actually out of control, how often are you doing it, how badly is it a thing - ) though.


Re: rules clarification
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2020, 09:34:51 AM »
I stop, put Toto in a sit (although he is usually barking at me anyway!) and stay, back up and redirect him to an "out" obstacle on chances all the time.  I have never had that called as training.  It is a way that I can get him to do the distance in chances since, at times, he doesn't move away from me all that well. 
Audri, Lily, Cee Cee and Toto, Calypso

Chris Nelson

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2196
Re: rules clarification
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2020, 01:42:06 PM »
The moving wait situation is unclear, because there isn't really a way to make it black and white.
It really is a judgement call.

We try to get everyone pretty close to the same page though.
If a dog is heading for an off course obstacle, and the handlers stops the dog = no issue
If a dog is heading for an off course obstacle, handler stops them, redirects, dog heads for another off course, handler stops them = no issue.

Dog is running normally, handler stops them, then continues = suspicious and odd, but no issue
Handler consistently starts and stops the dog while running the course, for no apparent reason relating to the course = training and an E.

I know some handlers have had dogs that want to just run and not really listen, so they will do a ton of moving waits in random spots throughout the course to get their dog to pay attention and listen a bit more, done excessively it's training.

The gruff talk is pretty easy.

Imagine a child doing something in a store.   You don't know the child, don't know the parent, and have never seen them before.  But they're doing something they shouldn't, not life threatening, just opening a box of cocoa puffs.

If you told the child to not do that, in a loud but assertive way, it's probably not going to be an issue.    Some people might not like it, but it's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

If you yell at them and are obviously angry and trying to intimidate them with your voice, you'll most likely be leaving the store without your groceries but a nice pair of shiny hand cuffs.

Same applies here.   You can be loud and assertive, but you can't yell and try to intimidate your dog while in the ring.

Kyle

  • 2016 Online Seminar Group
  • *****
  • Posts: 318
Re: rules clarification
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2020, 07:45:24 AM »
Dog is running normally, handler stops them, then continues = suspicious and odd, but no issue
Handler consistently starts and stops the dog while running the course, for no apparent reason relating to the course = training and an E.

I know some handlers have had dogs that want to just run and not really listen, so they will do a ton of moving waits in random spots throughout the course to get their dog to pay attention and listen a bit more, done excessively it's training.

A little Devil's Advocate here  ;) :
a.) Why not just let the clock handle this? If they're doing that many stops, aren't they probably going to run out of time?
b.) If they're making their way around the course in the correct order, not re-doing obstacles, why give them an E? This *could* be considered "just their own way" of running a course. Perhaps the handler can only remember 4 obstacles in a sequence (that could be me!) and this is just how they do it. Why should we care if they keep starting and stopping as long as they are on course? (Taken to the extremes of Extreme....stopped contacts could be considered this way.  :-\ )

I guess I just don't get why anyone would care about this....maybe I'm not seeing a bigger picture???

-Kyle
Kyle
Leona Valley, CA

BeckyAH

  • **
  • Posts: 192
Re: rules clarification
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2020, 09:27:35 AM »
Dog is running normally, handler stops them, then continues = suspicious and odd, but no issue
Handler consistently starts and stops the dog while running the course, for no apparent reason relating to the course = training and an E.

I know some handlers have had dogs that want to just run and not really listen, so they will do a ton of moving waits in random spots throughout the course to get their dog to pay attention and listen a bit more, done excessively it's training.

A little Devil's Advocate here  ;) :
a.) Why not just let the clock handle this? If they're doing that many stops, aren't they probably going to run out of time?
b.) If they're making their way around the course in the correct order, not re-doing obstacles, why give them an E? This *could* be considered "just their own way" of running a course. Perhaps the handler can only remember 4 obstacles in a sequence (that could be me!) and this is just how they do it. Why should we care if they keep starting and stopping as long as they are on course? (Taken to the extremes of Extreme....stopped contacts could be considered this way.  :-\ )

I guess I just don't get why anyone would care about this....maybe I'm not seeing a bigger picture???

-Kyle

I once spent an actual 30 seconds trying to make my dog stop taking the wrong end of a tunnel on a regular course, and still made time without penalty in regular - and she's a 16" dog.  Just a very fast one.  Which means that she is both harder to control (I could and should use more moving waits with this understanding) and for whom time is not much issue.   So... not necessarily re: the clock, especially not smaller dogs, of which I also have one where times  are much more generous.

Lisa Schmit In The Zone Agility

  • Trial Secretary
  • *****
  • Posts: 366
    • In The Zone Agility
Re: rules clarification
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2020, 04:34:09 PM »
What about the handler stopping the dog  and then the handler MOVING away from dog and then releasing?

Example- dog walk hoop hoop are the last two obstacles but there is off course tunnel to the side. 
Handler releases dog from walk.... dog drives towards first hoop and handler tells dog to wait . dog stops.. handler walk forward a few steps and then releases dog to end of course.

thanks
Be Well & Happy
In The Zone Agility
www.inthezoneagility.com
Agility and Conditioning Seminars/Online Training Classes

RobertStewart

  • **
  • Posts: 216
Re: rules clarification
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2020, 05:43:28 AM »
What about the handler stopping the dog  and then the handler MOVING away from dog and then releasing?

Example- dog walk hoop hoop are the last two obstacles but there is off course tunnel to the side. 
Handler releases dog from walk.... dog drives towards first hoop and handler tells dog to wait . dog stops.. handler walk forward a few steps and then releases dog to end of course.

thanks

Good question! It looks like training in the ring.
Robert Stewart
NATCH-4 Sidheag, PAX, MXP3, MXJP3, MFP, APD

Wynndzor, ECC, OJC, EAC, TG-E, S-TN-E, WV-E, BR-E, HP-O AX, AXJ, AXF

At the Bridge
NATCH-12, V-NATCH-11, AA-NATCH-4, MACH-2, PACH, ADCH/LAA, Platinum, PDCH-Bronze, Rocket Man
NATCH-4  MACH PDCH Brnz Ellie
NATCH-4  Misty Leigh
NATCH-4  "Q!"

Amy McGovern

  • **
  • Posts: 394
Re: rules clarification
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2020, 08:00:22 AM »
What about the handler stopping the dog  and then the handler MOVING away from dog and then releasing?

Example- dog walk hoop hoop are the last two obstacles but there is off course tunnel to the side. 
Handler releases dog from walk.... dog drives towards first hoop and handler tells dog to wait . dog stops.. handler walk forward a few steps and then releases dog to end of course.

thanks

This happens all the time in chances.  Stop the dog (who is spinning or barking or otherwise showing frustration) on their side of the line, back up, redirect and release.  That isn't training... Perhaps not the best way to redirect but I've seen MANY a handler do it!
Amy and the schnauzers

Chris Nelson

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2196
Re: rules clarification
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2020, 09:29:29 AM »
Online scenarios can be a bit hard, since sometimes what people explain versus what actual happens can be a bit different.

But the way it's explained here, I personally would not fault that as training.   

Re: rules clarification
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2020, 09:46:19 AM »
What about the handler stopping the dog  and then the handler MOVING away from dog and then releasing?

Example- dog walk hoop hoop are the last two obstacles but there is off course tunnel to the side. 
Handler releases dog from walk.... dog drives towards first hoop and handler tells dog to wait . dog stops.. handler walk forward a few steps and then releases dog to end of course.

thanks

This happens all the time in chances.  Stop the dog (who is spinning or barking or otherwise showing frustration) on their side of the line, back up, redirect and release.  That isn't training... Perhaps not the best way to redirect but I've seen MANY a handler do it!

I agree, I do this all the time with Toto.  He turns and barks at me.  I stop him, tell him to wait, back up a few feet, run towards him to push him towards the obstacle I want. 
Audri, Lily, Cee Cee and Toto, Calypso