Author Topic: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?  (Read 2738 times)

Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2020, 09:41:04 AM »
Leash placement was not up for debate on the survey.

For me this is safety issue. My dogs learn very quickly where the leash is (which you can see when Jedi went to the wrong chair, because that's where it was on the previous run). This will result in either them coming up short before the last obstacle so that they can stop at their leash, or it will result in them spinning in the air and jamming themselves into the ground. I don't want them to practice either of those behaviors. I feel that my dog should be able to come to a normal stop on their own after taking the last obstacle in extension. I do not want people walking towards my dog with their leash and that is my right.

I'll be honest. I haven't done a NADAC trial since last June when I went because tugging was allowed. That's when I learned about the leash placement. I haven't been back, and I likely won't if this is going to remain in place. I just won't do that to my dogs. They do not have that experience in any other organization.

In looking at the finish lines you posted, the leash in NADAC would be even further out of the way and poses no safety issue.  The leash is at least as far back from the last obstacle and off to the side.  The chairs that you showed are probably less than 8' from the last obstacle except for the obstacles which finish inside the course.  In what I have seen, with the leashes being on the ground, there have been no issues of dogs jamming themselves to stop for the leash.  With it being off to the side, and it varying from course to course, the dogs don't really see the leash to do that and they don't pattern to the leash like your dog did with going to the wrong chair. 
Audri, Lily, Cee Cee and Toto, Calypso

KarissaKS

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Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2020, 09:43:50 PM »
In looking at the finish lines you posted, the leash in NADAC would be even further out of the way and poses no safety issue.  The leash is at least as far back from the last obstacle and off to the side.  The chairs that you showed are probably less than 8' from the last obstacle except for the obstacles which finish inside the course.  In what I have seen, with the leashes being on the ground, there have been no issues of dogs jamming themselves to stop for the leash.  With it being off to the side, and it varying from course to course, the dogs don't really see the leash to do that and they don't pattern to the leash like your dog did with going to the wrong chair.

AKC rules stipulate a minimum of 20' from the last obstacle to the ring fencing. There may be some times when that gets squished a little, but at absolutely no point in time was the jump 8' away from the fence. In the one NADAC trial I did in June with these leash rules my dogs 100% did learn where that leash was going to be and it did affect their striding and performance. I will not do that to my dogs as I feel it is detrimental to their performance in other organizations. I have students who compete in NADAC and would like to be able to go and support them, but I will not go so long as this is the standard procedure. Unfortunately this often results in students choosing not to do NADAC agility as well.  I'm not expecting NADAC to make changes for me, I'm just stating a fact. I was a faithful NADAC supporter for years and for a long time it was my only organization. I still enjoy the trials/people and my dogs have fun on the courses, but I will be leaving it behind because of this.

It would be helpful for people to remember that just because you might not think something affects your dogs, this does not mean that everyone else feels the same way. My feelings are valid for my dogs. Given that it seems so very few people even utilize the leash on the ground option, one does have to wonder why NADAC felt it necessary to dictate the leash placement at all.
V-NATCH2/NATCH5 Luke, V-NATCH3/NATCH4 PACH Kaiser, NATCH MACH2 PACH Secret, Kizzy, Jedi & Ren

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bettyj.carter

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Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2020, 06:53:01 AM »
I just looked through the AKC rule book and couldn't find the stipulation of  "a minimum of 20' from the last obstacle to the ring fencing."  It did state that jumps should be 15 to 18 feet apart, but I couldn't find information about distance from ring fencing. I have been to MANY an AKC show where the finish jump is very close to the ring barrier, enough so, that I feel I need my dog to wrap the last jump so as not to run into the fence or gate. WAY under 20 feet that you mention. 

Kyle

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Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2020, 08:33:07 AM »
AKC rules stipulate a minimum of 20' from the last obstacle to the ring fencing. There may be some times when that gets squished a little, but at absolutely no point in time was the jump 8' away from the fence. In the one NADAC trial I did in June with these leash rules my dogs 100% did learn where that leash was going to be and it did affect their striding and performance. I will not do that to my dogs as I feel it is detrimental to their performance in other organizations. I have students who compete in NADAC and would like to be able to go and support them, but I will not go so long as this is the standard procedure. Unfortunately this often results in students choosing not to do NADAC agility as well.  I'm not expecting NADAC to make changes for me, I'm just stating a fact. I was a faithful NADAC supporter for years and for a long time it was my only organization. I still enjoy the trials/people and my dogs have fun on the courses, but I will be leaving it behind because of this.

It would be helpful for people to remember that just because you might not think something affects your dogs, this does not mean that everyone else feels the same way. My feelings are valid for my dogs. Given that it seems so very few people even utilize the leash on the ground option, one does have to wonder why NADAC felt it necessary to dictate the leash placement at all.

Karissa,

I'm certainly not going to say that your feelings about how your dogs need to end a run are not valid for you and your dogs. That's all perfectly fine. But, you do seem to be focusing on only one option available to you at NADAC trials. There is no hard and fast rule that says your leash must be placed on the ground (or in a bucket or whatever).

You still have two options available to you using a leash runner. 1.) You can ask the leash runner to just stand at the exit gate and you will take the leash when you get there. 2.) Ask one of your students or a friend to "leash buddy" for you and have them stand where you'd like them to until you come get your leash. Either option would not allow your dog to be approached by someone they may find to be uncomfortable. That issue would be solved. The issue of your students not coming and supporting a NADAC event would also be solved. (In fact, they would now be more involved by "helping" you.) The issue of your dogs coming up short or jamming themselves to a stop would be solved too.

I seriously doubt that anyone is going to complain about your request of having a leash runner stand at the exit gate until you get there. If there was such a complaint, and it was based on the time it takes for you to get to your leash, well, there's other reasons it takes "extra" time for people to leash up their dogs. One of my biggest personal complaints is that leash runners don't always hand me the leash with the loop open. I get handed this wadded ball of leash that I have to untangle. Really time consuming and frustrating for both me and my dog who just want to get out of the ring to celebrate. Another is, as a Bonus handler, my "box" may be at the beginning of the course, or in the middle somewhere, not anywhere near the finish, and I have to hustle my butt aaallllll the way to the finish where the leash runner is (or, if I had asked, where it was dropped). (I guess I really should ask the leash runner to just hang out near the box!  ;) )

It also does not appear that you just "mosey" over to get your leash. From your videos, it kinda looks like you *run* with your dogs.  ;D Sure, maybe you wouldn't want to *run* at the leash runner, but if it looks like you are making a concerted effort to get there in a timely fashion, I just can't see how anyone would/could complain.

So, Karissa, why not try giving either option 1 or 2 that I mentioned above a try? Then you and your students could continue trialing in NADAC and having a great time.

Sincerely,
Kyle
Kyle
Leona Valley, CA

KarissaKS

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Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2020, 09:38:53 AM »
I just looked through the AKC rule book and couldn't find the stipulation of  "a minimum of 20' from the last obstacle to the ring fencing."  It did state that jumps should be 15 to 18 feet apart, but I couldn't find information about distance from ring fencing. I have been to MANY an AKC show where the finish jump is very close to the ring barrier, enough so, that I feel I need my dog to wrap the last jump so as not to run into the fence or gate. WAY under 20 feet that you mention.

Here's a diagram that shows the specs that judges need to follow in their course design.
V-NATCH2/NATCH5 Luke, V-NATCH3/NATCH4 PACH Kaiser, NATCH MACH2 PACH Secret, Kizzy, Jedi & Ren

http://www.youtube.com/user/SarMoniet
http://agilityacrestn.com/

Linda W. Anderson

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Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2020, 05:21:28 PM »
I just looked through the AKC rule book and couldn't find the stipulation of  "a minimum of 20' from the last obstacle to the ring fencing."  It did state that jumps should be 15 to 18 feet apart, but I couldn't find information about distance from ring fencing. I have been to MANY an AKC show where the finish jump is very close to the ring barrier, enough so, that I feel I need my dog to wrap the last jump so as not to run into the fence or gate. WAY under 20 feet that you mention.
I agree!  I can't say I've ever seen the leash placement even 15' from the last obstacle.
Linda
Linda W. Anderson - Dogs have only one fault, their lives are too short!

Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2020, 08:15:56 AM »
In looking at the finish lines you posted, the leash in NADAC would be even further out of the way and poses no safety issue.  The leash is at least as far back from the last obstacle and off to the side.  The chairs that you showed are probably less than 8' from the last obstacle except for the obstacles which finish inside the course.  In what I have seen, with the leashes being on the ground, there have been no issues of dogs jamming themselves to stop for the leash.  With it being off to the side, and it varying from course to course, the dogs don't really see the leash to do that and they don't pattern to the leash like your dog did with going to the wrong chair.

AKC rules stipulate a minimum of 20' from the last obstacle to the ring fencing. There may be some times when that gets squished a little, but at absolutely no point in time was the jump 8' away from the fence. In the one NADAC trial I did in June with these leash rules my dogs 100% did learn where that leash was going to be and it did affect their striding and performance. I will not do that to my dogs as I feel it is detrimental to their performance in other organizations. I have students who compete in NADAC and would like to be able to go and support them, but I will not go so long as this is the standard procedure. Unfortunately this often results in students choosing not to do NADAC agility as well.  I'm not expecting NADAC to make changes for me, I'm just stating a fact. I was a faithful NADAC supporter for years and for a long time it was my only organization. I still enjoy the trials/people and my dogs have fun on the courses, but I will be leaving it behind because of this.

It would be helpful for people to remember that just because you might not think something affects your dogs, this does not mean that everyone else feels the same way. My feelings are valid for my dogs. Given that it seems so very few people even utilize the leash on the ground option, one does have to wonder why NADAC felt it necessary to dictate the leash placement at all.

Karissa, I can tell you from my experience at the trials that I do in AKC, which granted are limited, there is NO way that the leash is 20' from the barrier or the last obstacle.  Here is a screen shot from a video of one of my novice runs from last summer that shows the last obstacle.  You can't see the ring gate, but you can see from this shot that the person video taping is not 20' away from the end.   And in this case, they had a leash pole just to the left of where you can see.  This made several dogs actually veer towards the leash rather than take the last obstacle. 

I have no doubt your feelings are valid for your dogs and in the end you have to do what you feel is best.  So what is your solution to where the leash should be placed?
Audri, Lily, Cee Cee and Toto, Calypso