Author Topic: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?  (Read 2885 times)

KarissaKS

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Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
« on: January 24, 2020, 10:54:24 AM »
I seem to recall that tugging in the ring (and perhaps the toy rule?) were supposed to be voted on in December to determine if it was going to stick around. Did this ever happen? Is this still allowed?

What is the current status of the placement of the leash when a handler requests that it not be handed to them?
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Bernie Doyle

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Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2020, 06:47:07 AM »
Hi Karissa,

If you want the leash on the ground, leash "walkers" are instructed to place it ~ 7' back & to the side of the final obstacle. That way it isn't a "target" right in the middle of the final obstacle. Also, I haven't heard/been told otherwise, so I am  going with tugging is still allowed in the ring, after your run is complete. Intro & Novice teams are still allowed to bring  "non squeaky"  toys/tugs into the ring for training. They must "declare"/show the toy to the judge for their training run. Teams will then have the allotted 60 seconds of training/ring time.

Hope this helps!

Bernie
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Amy McGovern

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Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2020, 07:53:00 AM »
As someone VERY happy with tugging, I am glad the rule stayed.  My girl loves it!  Gives her a job at the end, which she really needed.

-Amy and the schnauzers
Amy and the schnauzers

Chris Nelson

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Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2020, 12:50:11 PM »
We unfortunately had a few things going on through December and the vote fell by the wayside.

We'll open it up here today and let everyone know.    I can say that I highly doubt anything will be changing.   Since even some folks that were adamantly against it, have found out that it's really just not an issue at all in real world scenarios.


KarissaKS

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Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2020, 06:27:20 PM »
Hi Karissa,

If you want the leash on the ground, leash "walkers" are instructed to place it ~ 7' back & to the side of the final obstacle. That way it isn't a "target" right in the middle of the final obstacle. Also, I haven't heard/been told otherwise, so I am  going with tugging is still allowed in the ring, after your run is complete. Intro & Novice teams are still allowed to bring  "non squeaky"  toys/tugs into the ring for training. They must "declare"/show the toy to the judge for their training run. Teams will then have the allotted 60 seconds of training/ring time.

Hope this helps!

Bernie

Thanks Bernie. I'm not a fan of the 7' distance. My dogs can land farther out than that when in extension. I would really prefer it to be 20' or as far out as the ring allows. Leashes were put on a chair by the gate all weekend at my (other venue) trial and that works out just fine. This is the sort of thing that will affect my choice to do NADAC or not.
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JimmyS.

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Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2020, 07:16:32 PM »
8 down, away from the course, and 8 to the side (whichever side is logical for the leash runner) with a marker on the ground, is the rule.

We do not do the leash on a chair mainly because it makes trial efficiency/flow go way down. We also do not want to have a finish line dog off leash for an extended period of time with a startline dog waiting.


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KarissaKS

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Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2020, 08:57:09 AM »
So what you are saying is that because "some people" mosey their way to the finish line, this impacts everyone? I do not want the placement of the leash near an obstacle to impact my dog's performance in any way. Further, the side that the leash runner chooses to place the leash on may or may not be in line with where I want my dog to finish. You can say that the dog shouldn't "target their leash," but I would argue that my dogs simply know the most efficient and fast way out of the ring. Jedi doesn't even tug on his leash, he wants to get out of the ring so that he can get his toy.

I just made a video of our finish lines just from what was still on my phone from our trial this weekend. Every finish line is different. I do not want their leash 7'-8' feet away from the last obstacle.

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BeckyAH

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Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2020, 09:22:38 AM »
My finish lines are the dog wrapping the final obstacle (with a cue to do so) and coming back to me.  It does not matter at all where the leash is, because we're going to walk together, put it on and leave.   Where I am is more relevant than where my dog lands.

NADAC is never going to make everyone happy. Someone is always going to have a problem with something because it doesn't work for their dogs.    Someone is always going to be extra happy because a rule works super well for their dogs.   Most people will fall in between.

NADAC's job is to serve the majority to the best of their ability, and if that means losing some competitors, well, so be it.  Because serving individuals with specific rules is simply going to make SOMEONE ELSE unhappy enough to leave to threaten to.

Most other venues do not offer you the opportunity to have a personalized debate with the people who make the rules.  It takes lots of people showing that there is a problem before things change and even then they do so, slowly.  Frankly, I think that in this those other venues may have the right idea.  The stress and time wasted on engaging EVERY PERSON who has some issue in NADAC has got to be enormous.

And not useful.

Jeannie Biggers

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Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2020, 10:09:17 AM »


Every finish line is different. I do not want their leash 7'-8' feet away from the last obstacle.



So don't have it laid on the ground.  It is still an option to have it handed to you. 

And to just clarify....it is laid at a marker 8' from and 8' to the side of the last obstacle.  It is not in the direct line of the dogs path.

Jeannie

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JimmyS.

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Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2020, 10:10:06 AM »
So what you are saying is that because "some people" mosey their way to the finish line, this impacts everyone? I do not want the placement of the leash near an obstacle to impact my dog's performance in any way. Further, the side that the leash runner chooses to place the leash on may or may not be in line with where I want my dog to finish. You can say that the dog shouldn't "target their leash," but I would argue that my dogs simply know the most efficient and fast way out of the ring. Jedi doesn't even tug on his leash, he wants to get out of the ring so that he can get his toy.

I just made a video of our finish lines just from what was still on my phone from our trial this weekend. Every finish line is different. I do not want their leash 7'-8' feet away from the last obstacle.


Well, hopefully you voted No on the survey then. :-)


Since what i said was misinterpreted, i will clarify, its up to the judge where the marker is placed, based on where it is best for the leash runner.


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KarissaKS

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Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2020, 12:10:39 PM »
Leash placement was not up for debate on the survey.

For me this is safety issue. My dogs learn very quickly where the leash is (which you can see when Jedi went to the wrong chair, because that's where it was on the previous run). This will result in either them coming up short before the last obstacle so that they can stop at their leash, or it will result in them spinning in the air and jamming themselves into the ground. I don't want them to practice either of those behaviors. I feel that my dog should be able to come to a normal stop on their own after taking the last obstacle in extension. I do not want people walking towards my dog with their leash and that is my right.

I'll be honest. I haven't done a NADAC trial since last June when I went because tugging was allowed. That's when I learned about the leash placement. I haven't been back, and I likely won't if this is going to remain in place. I just won't do that to my dogs. They do not have that experience in any other organization.
V-NATCH2/NATCH5 Luke, V-NATCH3/NATCH4 PACH Kaiser, NATCH MACH2 PACH Secret, Kizzy, Jedi & Ren

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Sarah Fix

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Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2020, 08:29:58 AM »
I'm with Jeannie.  Use one of the other options for leashes.  Have the leash runner bring you the leash, or if you don't trust them to do it right, ask a friend to do it.  There are only a few people (maybe 2) per trial who ask for the leash on the ground - sometimes none.  And almost all are because they have bouncy dogs and they want to avoid the E from having their dog jump on the leash runner.  Using the leash runner should ensure that you are handed the leash in a timely manner and ready to go on your dog.  But it's your choice - and if you're happier in another venue - go for it!
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Becky

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Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2020, 09:32:07 AM »
I am currently asking for the leash on the ground for my new dog, because he's quirky.  If he sees someone (anyone, even someone he knows) holding a leash, he will try to avoid being caught and leashed.  I do not believe he would EVER go jump on the leash runner.  If it's on the ground, he doesn't notice it as much and he feels OK jumping into my arms, so that I can then pick up the leash and put it on him.  Placement of the leash did not seem to be a problem at our recent trial.  What seemed to be more of a problem for him were the time or two when the leash runner was still in the process of bringing the leash to the placement point when he finished; seeing someone in motion with a leash made him slow down a bit and avoid them.
Becky in NC

Amy McGovern

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Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2020, 09:51:06 AM »
I'm with Jeannie.  Use one of the other options for leashes.  Have the leash runner bring you the leash, or if you don't trust them to do it right, ask a friend to do it.  There are only a few people (maybe 2) per trial who ask for the leash on the ground - sometimes none.  And almost all are because they have bouncy dogs and they want to avoid the E from having their dog jump on the leash runner.  Using the leash runner should ensure that you are handed the leash in a timely manner and ready to go on your dog.  But it's your choice - and if you're happier in another venue - go for it!

I'm one of those rare ones who ask for it on the ground (usually I'm the only one at a show who does so).  I just want to focus on her and the leash and not extra people and her loud mouth telling me that the run should NOT BE DONE YET at the end.  LOL!  it gives both of us a chance to focus on a new job:  sitting and leashing up.  Then tugging as we go out :).

Side note:  I do wish the leash runners would understand "leave it on the ground" and what that means. I've had to tell multiple runners that doesn't mean "throw it at me at the end" :-P. Yes, this is a training issue for the humans but one I prefer to avoid having to train in the moment at the end of my run!

-Amy
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BeckyAH

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Re: Tugging in the ring -- Final decision?
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2020, 06:39:26 PM »

I'm one of those rare ones who ask for it on the ground (usually I'm the only one at a show who does so).  I just want to focus on her and the leash and not extra people and her loud mouth telling me that the run should NOT BE DONE YET at the end.  LOL!  it gives both of us a chance to focus on a new job:  sitting and leashing up.  Then tugging as we go out :).

Side note:  I do wish the leash runners would understand "leave it on the ground" and what that means. I've had to tell multiple runners that doesn't mean "throw it at me at the end" :-P. Yes, this is a training issue for the humans but one I prefer to avoid having to train in the moment at the end of my run!

-Amy

I am too one of those people, with one of my dogs, who can be a bit of a jerk.  It keeps her feeling confident and not worrying about people in the ring, so I'm not going to change.

But as I said my dog is always returning to me immediately after the last obstacle (command her to 'tight' that one) then walks beside me to the leash so I literally do not care WHERE it is put.  We waste no time at all, and we stay connected and she stays unfussed.