Author Topic: Backsides on Hoops  (Read 446 times)

arne

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Backsides on Hoops
« on: March 02, 2021, 08:39:30 PM »
In Chris' survey discussion one of the points made was that NADAC does not allow backsides.  I get that for jumps but is that also true for hoops?  If so, is a backside hoop any different than a hoop wrap in terms of stress on a dog's body or course flow for that matter?  Either way the dog is wrapping the side of a hoop.  It is a different handling skill but why would that make it disallowed?

Arne Lindberg

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Re: Backsides on Hoops
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2021, 06:39:27 AM »
I don't know the answer but I would guess its more about the flow than what the dog is physically doing.  Much like serpentines are allowed but threadles aren't.?

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Re: Backsides on Hoops
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2021, 06:41:07 AM »
That is not a skill I would care to teach. Even in organizations where backsides are allowed, it is required that they are done on a wing jump. Backsides are not allowed on wingless jumps.
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Edraith

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Re: Backsides on Hoops
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2021, 10:03:15 AM »
Wrapping a hoop you can leave it at any angle since it is taken from a front on your normal approach path. You dont have to force a very tight turn upon exit because there is nothing to aim for. A backside as a skill is going to be very tight; think about it you would have to bring your dog around a wide loop to approach it from the back safely which requires a lot of hands on handling and ruins flow, and at this point we may as well serp for a safe angle in the course design so people dont do wrong by their dog to shave off seconds. Its why wings are required for jump backsides to force some curve rather than uber tight. So if then its “ok lets make hoop wings!” Well....now you are at a barrel performance which can be taken either way directionally as a wrap (can flip side to make a lead change like a backside, or take it same lead) but there is no “target zone” of obstacle that forces a certain curve for that dog, they can lead change and turn at will how it is comfortable
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 10:07:52 AM by Edraith »
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Chris Nelson

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Re: Backsides on Hoops
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2021, 12:01:04 PM »
Has much more to do with flow then anything else.

NADAC is primarily focused on being able to give a clear and concise direction to the dog, and that be correct, without a handlers physical intervention.

A backside doesn't really work with that mind set.     Since you're going straight for the obvious obstacle, but you aren't actually taking it, you're taking the opposite side.

There is an argument to be made that it's 100% possible to train this as a command, lots of people do.   But what I see way more of than a command is the handlers being physically there for the backside.

But it just doesn't really fit with our course design criteria.   We also pretty heavily discourage multiple direction changes between obstacles, for the same reasons as above, and a backside would be difficult while following this as well.

So they just don't really fit with what our goals are :)

arne

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Re: Backsides on Hoops
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2021, 08:15:10 PM »

Thanks for the explanation.  I definitely like the flow of NADAC courses and would not want changes that compromised that.

We frequently do backside hoops in training.  With my dogs I do not see much difference in flow compared to a hoop wrap if I give the backside command early enough and my handling is correct (often big ifs).  A backside hoop (not jump) does not seem to be any more stressful on the dogs than is a hoop wrap but not knowing for sure was part of the reason I asked the question.  I definitely agree if backsides were not something I trained they would likely look pretty ugly on a course.

Thanks for the discussion.

Arne Lindberg

Sara Langston

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Re: Backsides on Hoops
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2021, 06:48:21 AM »
Has much more to do with flow then anything else.

NADAC is primarily focused on being able to give a clear and concise direction to the dog, and that be correct, without a handlers physical intervention.

A backside doesn't really work with that mind set.     Since you're going straight for the obvious obstacle, but you aren't actually taking it, you're taking the opposite side.

There is an argument to be made that it's 100% possible to train this as a command, lots of people do.   But what I see way more of than a command is the handlers being physically there for the backside.


Thanks so much, Chris.  This is another reason I love NADAC.  I am not a fan at all of backsides on anything. 
Sara

But it just doesn't really fit with our course design criteria.   We also pretty heavily discourage multiple direction changes between obstacles, for the same reasons as above, and a backside would be difficult while following this as well.

So they just don't really fit with what our goals are :)
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